We don't need no education....

[DaleC]

Another class that sounds thouroughly useless...

Nitrox...took it...should have been a 5 min chapter in AOW...
Underwater Photography...lol
Drift Diving (c'mon...I've drift dove dozens of time without a class...)

So what is your opinion on this ?

My opinion is to each their own. Just because you did something one way doesn't make it right or suitable for others. People learn in different ways and have differing comfort levels in regards to scuba.

I don't think Nitrox is a 5 minute learn (unless you are willing to settle for a limited knowledge base). Nitrox was where I first began to really understand the effects of all gas mixes on the body, decompression models, dive planning /best mixes etc... Before that it was just plain old air.

UW Photography. That's a stretcher for me but what if you are a vacation diver going on a $3000 trip with a limited number of dives. Do you want to waste your time (photo ops) learning how to take pictures there or pre trip?

Drift. Again, what if you're an occasional vacation diver booked on a trip with a drift dive (first time). Do you really want divers figuring it out there?

It's not how I dive or learn but I know not everybody does things the way I do.

 

[drbill]

Many are good self-learners, others need a structured approach with an instructor to guide them. I started solo diving before PADI or NAUI ever existed. I've done it for nearly 50 years. If they had a solo cert, I could undoubtedly teach it (I have been an educator for 45 years) according to a number of instructors I know. I do have questions as to why my experience wouldn't at least equate to a solo cert given by one of the agencies that offers it.

I've photographed and videotaped underwater for 9 years (40 if you count my earliest futile efforts). I find it a bit of a laugh that I am not "certified" to teach underwater photography or videography because I'm not a certified instructor.

I've been a research marine biologist for 40 years yet similarly I'm not qualified to teach a naturalist cert. I've seen instructors do it who really don't have a good handle on the marine life they are exposing students to.

Why is it the certifying agencies require a dive professional to teach such subjects when there are far more qualified people out there who can. I wouldn't teach OW or other cert courses because I recognize I'm not qualified to do that, but I certainly am qualified to teach the specialties I mention.

 

[Diver0001]

I've been a research marine biologist for 40 years yet similarly I'm not qualified to teach a naturalist cert. I've seen instructors do it who really don't have a good handle on the marine life they are exposing students to.

Why is it the certifying agencies require a dive professional to teach such subjects when there are far more qualified people out there who can. .

Actually, that's somewhat of a misconception. In terms of diving skills the instructor is required to introduce the skill. In the case of non-diving skills then the instructor is free to delegate it as long as they supervise to be sure that things are being done to standards.

In terms of Naturalist and similar other courses, PADI doesn't technically demand that one of their instructors actually *teach* it... it can be delegated as I said... but the instructor may be required for (indirect) supervision and to sign off for the card.

In other words, if you want to teach naturalist, then I'm absolutely sure that a shop *could* hire you to do that. You just wouldn't be able to do it completely independently. The other issue, of course, is that no shop could afford you but instructors are a dime a dozen.

R..

 

[DCBC]

I don't think Nitrox is a 5 minute learn (unless you are willing to settle for a limited knowledge base). Nitrox was where I first began to really understand the effects of all gas mixes on the body, decompression models, dive planning /best mixes etc... Before that it was just plain old air.

Hi Dale,

As you're aware, these skill-sets are included in many Recreational Diver (Air) training programs. Some Agency standards have changed, where it's now only covered to a sufficient degree at the enriched air level. So I suppose it largely depends upon an individual's perspective.

 

[Peter Guy]

I've taken "con ed" classes that were a total waste of time (boat diving for example) and a fabulous experience (uw photography for example). What was the difference? The value added by the instructor.

IF all you get from "boat diving" is "The pointy end is the bow and the toilet is called the head and the thingy that goes round and round is at the stern" type of instruction, the instructor has probably NOT added any value to the class.

If, however, you get value added -- for example having the instructor work with you on testing strobe effect distance, color dispersal distance, minimum focusing distance, etc., your UW photography class may well be of significant value. (Personal note -- my boat diver specialty WAS a joke while my UW Photography specialty was quite worthwhile -- and in both instances I was well versed in the activity before taking the specialty. In both instances, the instructor made the difference -- one added value, one did not.)

At least regarding PADI, I believe, that, in general, the materials are quite good and a self-learner should acquire all the "academic" knowledge just from doing the homework. This means the instructor needs to think about the topic, how it relates to the student and how it relates to the particular environment -- i.e., value added. It is unfortunate that so many people do not seem to get the value that could be, should be, added to all these "courses."

Do you need education? Yes. What's the best way? Depends.

(BTW, I'm very glad I do have a Dry Suit Card because it allowed me to rent a drysuit for my wife who didn't have a card -- even though she had over 400 drysuit dives!)

 

[Pearldiver07]

IF all you get from "boat diving" is "The pointy end is the bow and the toilet is called the head and the thingy that goes round and round is at the stern" type of instruction, the instructor has probably NOT added any value to the class.

This is one of the worst classes I've seen instructors teach. It is truly a case of taking someone's money for skills they should learn in OW.

In fact I won't teach "Boat Diving" unless the student has a personal water craft and wants to learn how to responsibly dive off of it in local lakes (Local laws, anchoring, knots, exit/entry for their type of craft, gear distribution, etc.). Now considering salt water, if someone wants to fly me down to the Carribean to learn how to handle their boat off of an island, I'm not going to disappoint them now, am I?

Otherwise, why give out a card to show they know how to fall off the back of a boat?

 

[DaleC]

Hi Dale,

As you're aware, these skill-sets are included in many Recreational Diver (Air) training programs. Some Agency standards have changed, where it's now only covered to a sufficient degree at the enriched air level. So I suppose it largely depends upon an individual's perspective.

I think I would say individual experiences rather than perspectives. My contention was that pre Nitrox I just viewed the stuff we breath as air and post nitrox I view it as gas mixtures that have differing properties that can be manipulated to achieve varying effects. I'm curious which OW courses go into that kind of detail?

 

[Diver0001]

This is one of the worst classes I've seen instructors teach. It is truly a case of taking someone's money for skills they should learn in OW.

In fact I won't teach "Boat Diving" unless the student has a personal water craft and wants to learn how to responsibly dive off of it in local lakes (Local laws, anchoring, knots, exit/entry for their type of craft, gear distribution, etc.). Now considering salt water, if someone wants to fly me down to the Carribean to learn how to handle their boat off of an island, I'm not going to disappoint them now, am I?

Otherwise, why give out a card to show they know how to fall off the back of a boat?

I took a boat diving course that was really quite amazing. We do a fair amount of diving on the North Sea so the premise of the course went well beyond the obvious stuff. The premise was "what happens if your boat sinks". We spent an entire long day learning how to jump 8 metres or so off the side of a boat without hurting yourself, how to launch, get into and deal with a life-raft, including when it was inverted, learning how and when to use flares, learning the ins and outs of all the on-board equipment like EPIRBs and what to expect when you use one, learning what to do with a group if you happen to surface and the boat isn't there etc etc etc.

It was really quite interesting and a lot more educational than "that's the front and that's the back, and you jump off the back end" .... even for someone like me who already has some experience diving from boats.

Short version is, like any specialty, if you're motivated you can make it interesting.

R..

 

[DCBC]

I think I would say individual experiences rather than perspectives. My contention was that pre Nitrox I just viewed the stuff we breath as air and post nitrox I view it as gas mixtures that have differing properties that can be manipulated to achieve varying effects. I'm curious which OW courses go into that kind of detail?

All of mine have since I started teaching; not too many years ago this was the norm.

 

[AndyNZ]

The value added by the instructor.

What Peter said!

Short version is, like any specialty, if you're motivated you can make it interesting.

.... and what Rob said!



At the end of the day, it also depends on what the students want. Many students just want the card, for whatever reason, and really have no other aspiration that that. There are plenty of cheap courses where you turn up, do a few things and get the card.

The more important question, for a potential student, is what do you want to learn? The onus for education is never entirely on the instructor, the student also has a responsibility to have a desire to learn and it's that desire that stimulates an instructor to push a course in any given direction, or to add in the extra material. it makes the course appropriate for the student(s), not just some generic cookie cutter course.