We don't need no education....
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mbwilliamn
Contributor
Need a wreck cert to dive a wreck? Unless you are doing penetration (clearly requires a separate training and cert), what does that wreck cert look like? When I did my AOW, it included Wreck, deep, night, navigation and one or two other things we were interested in. I don't have a "wreck" cert card, so hows that work?
My comments were not suggesting that you didn't need training, just that you didn't need a cert course to get training. There are very good, experienced divers out there that can provide a wealth of knowledge. This isn't captured in the form of a c-card, but certainly can be referenced in a log book... but again, logs can be falsified.
Agreed that there is risk with a certified diver as with an uncertified one. All business must manage risk and liability, if they don't ask you for a card or a log book, then what should they request? It's logistically infeasible for them to take every diver into xyz situation on a check-out dive, no?
Agreed that there is risk with a certified diver as with an uncertified one. All business must manage risk and liability, if they don't ask you for a card or a log book, then what should they request? It's logistically infeasible for them to take every diver into xyz situation on a check-out dive, no?
Doing a wreck dive during AOW is not the same as being wreck certified (or even wreck trained). If that's your only training then you are at best, "wreck aware" (which I think is the point that folks are making).
AfterDark
Contributor
I don't think mbwilliamn said he did a wreck dive on his open water dive. He said his AOW covered Wreck, deep, night, navigation and one or two other things we were interested in. I'm pretty sure they did not do Wreck, deep, night, navigation and one or two other things they were interested in all on their open water dive(s). Please try to read then try to understand what people post.
I too, am very interested in UW photography.
I've started with a sea-life 2 yrs ago...just got myself a Nikon D300s last week-end (3200 iso...yooohoooo)...
I don't consier UW Photo a trivial pursuit...but I do consider the course one...
As a matter of fact, the most important aspect, I found, of effective UW photography, is great buyancy...which is not the point of the UW photo course anyway.
Now granted, many could use a class in "regular photography" (hyper-focals anyone?) but UW photography is just taking pictures with fins on...(why do I open myself to flaming like this? lol)
I think there are two issues with the specialty certs. One is the fragmentation of training, and whether the content of specialty certs ought to be part of the core classes or not (PPB, for example). The other is whether the specialty classes contain enough content to make them worth taking.
I don't think there is anything wrong with creating small classes to address specific topics. For many people, time is their most precious resource (which is one of the reasons why shortie OW classes are so popular). Creating classes that can be completed over a weekend allows people to expand their knowledge and their skills in chunks which are manageable, both from the standpoint of time and cost. One could argue that some of these chunks should be part of a diving core curriculum (PPB, again, or night diving) but if they are not adequately covered for the particular student, I don't see any harm in having a short class to focus on the relevant skills.
Can you learn many of these things from a skilled mentor? Sure. And some mentors are probably even better than some instructors, in that a mentor by definition is doing what he is doing because he WANTS to, and not because he is paid to do it or required to do it by his employer. But it is not always easy to find skilled mentors, and the value of a class is that a certain minimum curriculum is prescribed, meaning that you won't end up leaving some things uncovered because they didn't come up in the context of the mentored dives.
Now, whether these short courses have adequate content to make them worth the student's while is entirely instructor-dependent. My "boat" specialty consisted of going out on a boat in Molokini and diving off it. There was no specific education about boat diving at all, and the written materials for the specialty were not much better. On the other hand, Rob's boat specialty:
Here is an exquisite example of value-added. I can think of other topics -- how to find your way back to the anchor line, shooting a bag -- that might be relevant as well.
My husband is an accomplished photographer, and was already doing underwater work before he took his class, and the EXTREMELY skilled instructor taught him a lot about better underwater pictures.
My friend NW Grateful Diver teaches a night dive in his AOW that covers lights-out drills, buddy separation, communication protocols . . . There's a lot of "meat" to that one dive.
Some people prefer to learn things on their own, and many of these things can certainly be done on one's own. But the value of a class is to fill in the holes -- the things you haven't thought of; the things that come with experience; the things that OPTIMIZE diving in the particular context. The big problem is that too many of these small classes are taught to the minimums, and taught by people who really don't have much more background in the subject than their students. For example, as my husband was putting together the specialties he intends to teach, he left Underwater Photography out -- because he knows his instructor (who works for the same shop) can do a MUCH better job of it than he can. If people made that honest self-assessment about what they are really qualified to teach, we'd have less complaining about the classes, I think.
I don't think there is anything wrong with creating small classes to address specific topics. For many people, time is their most precious resource (which is one of the reasons why shortie OW classes are so popular). Creating classes that can be completed over a weekend allows people to expand their knowledge and their skills in chunks which are manageable, both from the standpoint of time and cost. One could argue that some of these chunks should be part of a diving core curriculum (PPB, again, or night diving) but if they are not adequately covered for the particular student, I don't see any harm in having a short class to focus on the relevant skills.
Can you learn many of these things from a skilled mentor? Sure. And some mentors are probably even better than some instructors, in that a mentor by definition is doing what he is doing because he WANTS to, and not because he is paid to do it or required to do it by his employer. But it is not always easy to find skilled mentors, and the value of a class is that a certain minimum curriculum is prescribed, meaning that you won't end up leaving some things uncovered because they didn't come up in the context of the mentored dives.
Now, whether these short courses have adequate content to make them worth the student's while is entirely instructor-dependent. My "boat" specialty consisted of going out on a boat in Molokini and diving off it. There was no specific education about boat diving at all, and the written materials for the specialty were not much better. On the other hand, Rob's boat specialty:
Here is an exquisite example of value-added. I can think of other topics -- how to find your way back to the anchor line, shooting a bag -- that might be relevant as well.
My husband is an accomplished photographer, and was already doing underwater work before he took his class, and the EXTREMELY skilled instructor taught him a lot about better underwater pictures.
My friend NW Grateful Diver teaches a night dive in his AOW that covers lights-out drills, buddy separation, communication protocols . . . There's a lot of "meat" to that one dive.
Some people prefer to learn things on their own, and many of these things can certainly be done on one's own. But the value of a class is to fill in the holes -- the things you haven't thought of; the things that come with experience; the things that OPTIMIZE diving in the particular context. The big problem is that too many of these small classes are taught to the minimums, and taught by people who really don't have much more background in the subject than their students. For example, as my husband was putting together the specialties he intends to teach, he left Underwater Photography out -- because he knows his instructor (who works for the same shop) can do a MUCH better job of it than he can. If people made that honest self-assessment about what they are really qualified to teach, we'd have less complaining about the classes, I think.
AfterDark
Contributor
All valid and excellent points TSandM. The major issue at least from my perspective is the requirement on some charters of a cert for an activity say like night diving. After making hundreds of night dives many solo, real solo not just losing track of your buddy, I'll be darned if I'm paying someone for a card. Sometimes I think I smell a bit of a scheme here between the charters and the cert.agencies to make some $$$. I think it would be interesting to audit the charters that insist on certs for everything; to see if maybe they aren't getting a little something back. Or maybe it's just the business that the agencies can guide their way. Or I could be wrong and it's the lawyers and the nanny state. Regardless it has put a crimp in my plans of traveling around diving after I retire.:depressed:
If the activity is particularly dangerous, or other divers are more at-risk, then I completely understand and support their concern. They're willing to trust your skill as much as you're willing to educate yourself... seems a fair balance.
Gilldiver
Contributor
A bit condescending and full of hubris, aren't we?
For some it is not a case of "as you're willing to educate yourself" it is a case the diver being certified being more qualified by, pick your metric - number of dives, conditions dived, areas dived, etc. then the instructor.
In my own case, I got my AOW 16 years (1995) after getting my OW (1979) by taking an "instructor" into the engine room of the USS Tarpon and getting him a gauge. This was 3 years after I did get my Nitrox cert in 1992 when NITROX was voodoo gas and polite divers did not mention helium.
When he asked me what he could do for him, I just asked if I had past the AOW test. The only reason I even asked for the AOW card was that it was getting to be a bitch when away from areas that know me. Today, I'd need to ask him for card for deep diving, deco diving, wreck diving, penetration diving, extended range diver, ........
I just do not want to pay an instructor who can't do some of the dives I do $250 - $1,000+ to give me a cert to do what I have been doing. It is not a case of educating my self, it is a case of the agencies catching up with me and asking me to pay what is essentially a worthless, to me, card
The same thing happened with my mix cert, my first mix dive was on 21/30 in 1993 or 1994 and I have been filling my own tanks with Nitro and mix since 1997. But getting fills away fro home was not possible, so I went and got my cert from a mix instructor who was doing those early dives with me in the 90's but at least it was at cost for boat, gas, and materials and a week away from the kids.
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