We don't need no education....

Abaco24 · Oct 26, 2009

Slonda828 · Oct 26, 2009

DaleC:
Well maybe if you took the course and got certified.

I am one of those old school jerks. I learned how to be arrogant all on my own, back before they offered classes! :rofl3:

DaleC · Oct 26, 2009

I learned everything I know about being a jerk from watching the movie "The Jerk". They just can't teach that kind of stuff in school.

marinediva · Oct 26, 2009

Many Many years ago my father told me that there will always be lesser and greater people than myself, and that I should be humble with my knowledge as it is forever changing as I learn more about life and how to live.

I have no doubt that the old school diver has much to teach the industry and individuals,
the experience level of some I am sure would be awesome. But saying education is not needed or warranted is bloody mindedness.

The fact that a younger or inexperienced diver goes out with an older diver would mean there is an exchange of information, even sitting in a pub and talking about your dives involves an exchange of information, this is all education. When you walk into a dive shop and see a new toy and ask how it works, that is education.

Who of us would allow a surgeon to operate on our loved ones or ourselves just because he had read some books and practiced on some poor wretched animals?
I certainly would like to know that the surgeon has at least been to some kind of school, and hopefully a good one, and also passed some sort of exam.

Or say a new immigrant to your country of origin, you get into his taxi, you would hope that at the least he actually knows how to drive, let alone know where he is going. He requires education. Not a UNI degree, but at least some sort of level of understanding of what he is doing.

There will always be individuals who excel in what they do. These people have passions, and are good at what they do because of the passion. They just don't accept others words for it, they go try it, enjoy it, and do their own research to be better at it, all for themselves.

These people are not common. They are exceptional.

1.2 million people use the GBR every year. I would hate to see a situation where they were let loose on it able to do what ever they wanted simply because some bright spark thought they did not need education.

Thalassamania · Oct 26, 2009

marinediva:
Show me. Not an interpretation, not what you remember from a class, show me the law itself.

This is not what I remember from a class,
This is not a interpretation.

My statements were based on reviewing the Workplace Health and Safety act, and having to know what my obligations were. My assessment for my Cert 4 was based on my knowledge and getting it right. We spent many hours reviewing the legislation and how it affected us as future trainers. Many of those hours were spent learning to interpret the legislation.

Please direct me to the web site so I can read through it in context.

marinediva · Oct 26, 2009

This is the Workplace Health and Safety Website
for the Qld Govt.
search Recreational Scuba diving

Homepage - Workplace Health and Safety Queensland

or

What law applies - Workplace Health and Safety Queensland

have also attached a link to a news report on Underwater Times
on a review of the Code of Practice

UnderwaterTimes | Queensland Government Establishes Recreational Scuba Safety Study Group; 'A Proactive Initiative'

Thalassamania · Oct 26, 2009

Thanks, I'll go through them.

Here's where the confusion comes from: "Whist not statutory standards, the AAS (Note: West Australia Activity Standard) provide the basis for policy formation and decision making by jurisdictions external to the outdoor adventure activity industry including, but not restricted to, licensing, insurance and legal jurisdictions."

and

"Recreational Diving and Snorkelling

The Department of Sport and Recreation (DSR) is committed to safe participation in physical activity and to the development and management of best practice in all areas of sport and recreation including underwater recreational diving and snorkelling.
DSR actively supports the voluntary Diving and Snorkelling Codes of Practice developed by stakeholders and the industry forum set up to address ongoing issues. These two initiatives are seen as positive and appropriate risk management strategies by the industry."

I'm suspecting that what you were quoting (and directed me to) are not AUSTRALIAN but simply Queensland, hence the confusion.

In any case I'm quite happy that you have provided me the Queensland documents. I'll get back when I've read completely through them.

Kern · Oct 26, 2009

Thalassamania:
I'm suspecting that what you were quoting (and directed me to) are not AUSTRALIAN but simply Queensland, hence the confusion.

Your suspicions are correct.

marinediva · Oct 26, 2009

I understand, although I find it hard to believe that other states would not have the same or at least similar legislation.

I feel it should be noted this is Workplace Health and Safety Legislation.
That is governed by state Law.

Within that legislation are regulations and codes of Practice.
The regulations are absolute........The codes of Practice are a minimum obligation.
If an operator is not adhering to the code of practice they must at least be able to show they are managing a risk at that level.

From what I have seen, I did check out Vic and NSW legislation. Both states have codes of practice as well. Both very similar although not exactly the same.

There are two other pieces to the puzzle.
One is from the Department of Education QLd. This is the regulation regarding school based diving activities. The other is standards for diving and scientific research. From what I know of your activities you may find that very interesting.

The states do differ often in regards to workplace safety, whatever industry one looks at,
but the differences are minimal.

Often when standards come up for review, standards from other states are reviewed, and implemented accordingly. One case I remember was a death of a woman in Vic whilst on a course. For whatever reason the coroner found the Instructor had been at fault. That ruling later was the reason all instructors must carry their flip cards for that particular dive with them when training.

The Missing Lonegans was a major catalyst for changes to the code of Practice in the early 2000's in QLd.

Practices do differ state to state, but one thing I do know for sure,
If it is to do with Workplace Health and Safety legislation it is law,
operators although often relaxed in adhering to the code of practice does not mean that it is not
mandatory. Queensland is quiet anal about diving practices.
Considering they have so much at stake, I understand the position authorities and the Industry has to take.

It is not about stopping a diver dive. It is about making sure non english speaking tourists and the young backpackers get back home safely.

This is a link to the Victorian legislation
http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/...ational+scuba+diving+and+snorkelling+guidance

it_mike · Oct 26, 2009

marinediva,

Just to keep things clear, according to your post, training is only required for workers (aka employees), not consumer rec divers:

marinediva:
(edited layout for readability)
Part 14 of the Workplace Health and Safety Regulation 2008 places requirements on operators, employers and self- employed people in the recreational diving/snorkelling and occupational diving industries.

For example:
For recreational dive operators, the regulation requires that:

all people on board a vessel are counted

dive workers are medically fit to dive

potential divers receive advice about medical conditions

dive logs are kept

divers or snorkellers are appropriately supervised and

a risk assessment is carried out.

For occupational dive operators, the regulation requires that:

a risk assessment is conducted

dive logs are kept

divers are competent and qualified, and medically fit to dive.

(snip)

Training
Ensure that recreational diving workers are trained in the procedures required at any particular dive site and qualified for the recreational diving work they are undertaking.

Ensure that dive supervisors have appropriate experience for the area they are supervising.

Before diving, assess the knowledge, skills and abilities of potential divers at all levels.

Nowhere in your post does it state that the customer must produce proof of training, just an assessment of the "knowledge, skills, and abilities".

We don't need no education....

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