Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[MXGratefulDiver]

I fail to see where these comments, based on a quote taken out of context, has anything to do with the current discussion on the scientific method, versus anecdotal evidence.

I think a more relevent question is what does the scientific method have to do with choosing scuba equipment?

I don't proselytise dive gear, what people use & their reasons for making that choice are entirely their concern.

Yup ... and I just got done explaining why most people make the choices they do. Has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

But let me ask you a question or two.

Do you dive a steel BP to satisfy your emotional needs & biases, or for other reasons.

Actually, I dive a BP because after wearing out a couple of traditional BCDs, I tried one and liked it better than what I'd been using. Coupla years later I tried a different rig and decided I liked it better than the one I'd been using ... so I sold my TransPlate/Rec Wing system and purchased an Oxycheq with standard harness. Another year or so went by and I discovered Tobin's Deep Sea Supply rig ... loved it so much I bought one and put my Oxycheq rig on the rack as a backup unit.

I didn't start getting into "other reasons" until I decided to take up tech diving ... at which time I went through a few different doubles wings and until I settled on my current selections (DSS Torus 49 and Halcyon Evolve 60). But even then about the only "science" I was using had to do with calculating how much lift I would need for the equipment I'd be hauling.

At no point did it ever occur to me to consider "scientific methods" ... or, for that matter, anything other than trying someone else's wing and deciding whether or not I liked the way it felt.

At some point I may purchase a rebreather. I've done some reading, and actually tried a half-dozen different types in a pool. If I decide to go that route I'll make my selection based on the one that "feels" best to me ... not someone else's opinion or some scientific "study" about which one is "best". There is no "best" in scuba gear ... every piece of equipment you can purchase has advantages and drawbacks. The "best" is the one that gives you the biggest grin factor.

If you were in the market for a DPV, would you take the Tahoe Bench Mark Scooter Tests mentioned by Tobin into consideration, or would you just listen to some anecdotes.

Both, actually ... but neither would be the deciding factor. Actually, I own a scooter ... a Dive X-tras Sierra. Recently I sent my Sierra into the shop for some maintenance work. And while it's been gone I borrowed a friend's Cuda. Nice rig, that Cuda ... way more powerful than mine. Tracks superbly on a run, and hauls me around at speeds that I can only describe as exhilarating. But I like my Sierra better ... because it's easier to haul into and out of the water, gets me where I want to go just fine, and when I want to "play", the agility of the smaller scooter lets me dance with the seals. Emotional needs and bias? Heck yeah ... my emotional need when I go diving is to maximize the fun. My bias is toward the equipment that's most suited to satisfying that need.

But the bottom line is that when we go out on Thursday evenings and put our Cudas, Sierras, Gavins, and SS's in the water together, they all play together nicely. We all may have chosen different equipment based on our emotional needs and biases, but the fundamental reasons why we bought them are amazingly compatible.

Dive manufacturers do busyness not science, so there would be precious few scientific comparisons to choose between. I'v seen quite a few people chose things like wet suits based on pseudo scientific nonsense however.

I've seen very, VERY few people base their equipment purchases on studies. Oh, they may use the results of the studies to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of the gear ... but ultimately they choose equipment that best matches what matters to them ... which gets us back to the emotional needs and biases department ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I don't do law, I do science. :blinking:



Must be something they do in the social sciences. Hmm, "social science" that'ed be an oxymoron too.

5 of us from SB go out on a new dive operation in ________ and each of us has to swim to shore because the crew did no head count and left while we were still underwater...each of us posts our experience with the operator...
This is anecdotal. Do you wait for a scientific analysis of the dive operator's safety proceedures, or do you decide NOT to try this operator based on anecdotal information?

 

[Kern]

5 of us from SB go out on a new dive operation in ________ and each of us has to swim to shore because the crew did no head count and left while we were still underwater...each of us posts our experience with the operator...
This is anecdotal. Do you wait for a scientific analysis of the dive operator's safety proceedures, or do you decide NOT to try this operator based on anecdotal information?

This incident led to an investigation that discovered that the 5 divers involved formed a conspiracy to discredit the dive operator.

 

[EastTNDiver]

This incident led to an investigation that discovered that the 5 divers involved formed a conspiracy to discredit the dive operator.

Yeah...I remember that one...it was all based on anecdotal evidence.

 

[EastTNDiver]

I just remembered...I have the perfect visual for this thread.

 

[Kern]

Bob, at no time have I made any argument that there is some best, or that people buy equipment based on scientific studies.

Non the less, if people want to prove that one style of gear is more streamlined than another, anecdotes from the various proponents won't prove anything.

 

[Kern]

I just remembered...I have the perfect visual for this thread.

Actually, I was at work, but now I'm not. Have a good one.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Don't you mean "advice" sorry, couldn't help myself

Perhaps that was a play on words?

The most prevalent bad typists with regards to BP/W, the ones that most often type their anecdotal opinion as if it were fact, are selling something. Their bad typing is both an ad and a vise, IMHO!

 

[cool_hardware52]

Non the less, if people want to prove that one style of gear is more streamlined than another, anecdotes from the various proponents won't prove anything.

Anecdotal evidence is not valueless. Many problems have been solved by insightful interpretation of anecdotal evidence.

Again, I'd love to see some data from well designed and controlled experiment, however to illustrate the major problem associated with such an approach let me ask the following question:

Can you contemplate *any* test that might validate that BP&W's offer any quantitative advantage being accepted by the halemanō's of the diving world?

I know I don't.

Tests are expensive, time consuming, hard to design and hard to execute. All of these burdens might be worth bearing if there was any chance of settling the argument conclusively. I am pessimistic that it would.

Tobin

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Unfortunately, Halemano has the grasp of science common to many children and many octogenarioans. He believes that there is something almost magical about the scientific method, and that if he follows the rituals of using certain "scientific sounding words", and pretends well enough in following the "scientific method", that the critiques and ideas he puts out will be seen as superior to the "anecdotal" postings of other SB members. He does not recognize the rampant misuse of "science" as exemplified by the pharmaceutical industry, where for enough money, virtually any toxic drug, can be scientifically "proven" as absolutely safe, within the guidelines of the FDA ...with proper disclaimers...This is a world where big money can nearly always corrupt the scientific method at will, and provide consumers with a strong feeling that "SCIENCE" supports the product pushed by this money.

Bottom line... Science is constantly misused. For the purposes of this discussion on scubaboard, it is no better than smoke and mirrors, as "used by" Halemano.

Firstly; what does the "pharmaceutical industry" have to do with bad typing on SB?



Dan, so good to have new material to work with on such an appropriate day!

This paragraph is quite an interesting personal attack / rant, in a thread filled with them. If you can't make a valid argument, by all means continue on the "attack the messenger" bandwagon.



Your typing here is over the top, even for you. You type as fact your flimsy opinion on my "grasp of science" and evidently know that I "believe that there is something almost magical about the scientific method" but isn't this just your "smoke and mirrors" to distract people from the facts?



AFAIR, I'm just pointing out when SB ADVISE is typed as fact, when in fact that SB ADVISE is not fact. I do not think you will find any posts by me where I "tell" people they should buy or dive the gear I do. At most I think you will find that I have told people that they should consider similar gear to the rest of the divers making the same dives they intend to make. Is it my fault the vast majority of divers are making successful dives with vest BC's?



If it is just your opinion, express it as an opinion!