Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[MauiScubaSteve]

I would not argue that anything is entirely true for every single case. I would not argue that a BP/W is a better option for every diver or every situation, either.

I can show you a photo that I took that will illustrate how a jacket bcd is, in my opinion anyway, not very streamlined. The diver shown here is 5'2 and about 110lbs. Look how far down the jacket pushes away from her. As you can easily see there is hardly any air in it. That knife..lol...she wanted it there and I had argued against it, but she wouldn't budge until seeing the photo. It got moved that evening.

Thoughts?

Let's look at the whole post. See that bold sentence?

"I can show you a photo that I took that will illustrate how a jacket bcd is, in my opinion anyway, not very streamlined"

If you had typed ".... this jacket bcd is, in my opinion, not very streamlined," then you would not have condemned all Vest BC's as "not very streamlined?"

So why buy that model of ScubaPro and also why use a badly fitting Vest BC to condemn all Vest BC's as "not very streamlined?"

You're really reaching here, and clearly just trying to pick out little pieces of posts to make a typical Internet argument. Are you 13 yrs old or what?

I can't even believe I'm going to play along, but I guess (like you) I have nothing better to do.

That Bella BCD is what she was sold at the LDS. I did not pick it out. I did not size it for her. I did not chose it or suggest she buy it. She was a very new diver at the time, and this is what she was told was "perfect" for her. She now knows that this BCD is not an ideal fit for her as well. When someone buys a BCD at a shop with no pool, there is no real way to see for sure how it will be in water, is there? Plus, it's not like you can return them.

One last thing, too. In no way did I say that based on that one situation that all vest BCDs are or are not streamlined. I don't appreciate your child-like argument tactics and twisting my post around to suit your agenda.

"I can show you a photo that I took that will illustrate how a jacket bcd is, in my opinion anyway, not very streamlined"

Re-read the very fist thing you said, after that first part.

You just keep on keepin' on being awesome :mooner:

 

[Tortuga68]

Congratulations, after 120 posts you finally found one that you could argue over

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I dive a BP/W because it works for every type of diving I do. The same can not be said for the jacket. Am I expected to buy a poodle jacket with an AIRII for the Islands? What incidents have you Islanders witnessed that would cause such disdain for a diver's personal choice in rigs?

*dave* - as you can see here, The topic I mentioned was not about trying to get you to buy anything.

I am specifically interested in hearing from SB's BP/W proponents about why you first chose to go the BP/W route? As usual, I encourage everyone who cares to participate in this exchange of thoughts to share, ask questions, flame, criticize &/or rebut, however you please, but I will reiterate; I truly want to know why you chose to go the BP/W route?

Here are some posts from an old thread, resurrected recently by a fairly new member who seems challenged by math.

I gave people options, and intoxicant, but I also asked twice for the why's!

There was expected entertainment around the on topic posts, but the real topic is...

"INTERNET EXPERTS STATING OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT."

In a thread in New Divers, Dan claimed that.....

My point above about the bp/wing subgroup of divers, is more about mindset...the much smaller group of bp/wing divers, as a group, have typically gone this route becuase they wanted to be more streamlined and to have a system that allows easier weight shifting and customization to achieve optimal trim and perfect fit.....and remember, the small/medium and large sizing of vest bcs is NOT custom fitting--while bp/wings systems are.

That is why I started this thread, to see if Dan was stating a fact, or if he was stating his opinion as if it were fact.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As I recall, the "warped view of the dive world" comment came from Peter Guy, who's about as much an equipment agnostic as I've ever met ... and the context of the comment had nothing whatsoever to do with gear choices.

It had everything to do with Halemano's objection to Lynne posting about a dive we did on New Year's Eve in Puget Sound in the Basic Discussions forum ... because he believes that unless you dive in a location like Maui, using the equipment he uses ... you're not a Basic diver.

Read the thread for yourself ... you'll find that there's only one person in the whole thread who's making an issue out of BCD choices ... and that's Halemano ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yes Bob, no need to hide the name of the thread, I already quoted it and posted the link.... (at least I have it, as post #59 )

Here is an example....

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/364930-how-have-great-dive.html

Yesterday, I saw the old year out on a boat with seven other divers. It was a stunning day in Puget Sound, although very cold, with air temperatures in the high 20s and water temperatures in the high 40's. We did two different sites and we had a ball. Now, admittedly, everyone on the boat was VERY experienced -- I think the most novice has several hundred dives -- and had a lot of advanced training.

As the title of this thread indicates, evolution is one of the topics.

I made issue of a number of things, not just BCD's...

I am definitely implying that from a Basic Scuba Discussions forum perspective, a boat dive in Puget Sound when the air temps are in the high 20's and the water temps are in the high 40's is not really Basic Scuba.

If we just say that to be basic scuba at least 50% of the divers in the world would have tried it; what percentage of world wide divers have tried BP/W, dry suits, argon, all of the above and more on the same dive?

My main thought was and still is that diving with air temps in the high 20's and water temps in the high 40's with a group of divers where the least experienced diver has several hundred dives and lots of advanced training is not really Basic Scuba; IMHO it should have been in Advanced Scuba. :shocked2:

Peter said I had a "warped view of the dive world." Happy New Year!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

To the OP:
I don't know why you're always tripping so hard about BP/W users?
Some people just found something that works better for them.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, BP/W are not going to take over the world any more than DIR or those weird vintage divers will.

Most average recreational divers world wide still don't know what a BP/W is and probably don't care. They just go into their LDS, get certified, get outfitted, pay whatever the price is, and go diving.

I am not "tripping so hard about BP/W users." I challenge you to quote me where I took issue with someone "being a BP/W user."

I have made it my pet peeve to point out when the....

"INTERNET EXPERTS STATE OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT."

It doesn't just happen with BP/W's, but it happens a lot more with BP/W's. I rarely look into BP/W threads for cold water divers so there are probably plenty of....

"INTERNET EXPERTS STATING OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT."

that I don't point out, but I only have so much time for internet policing.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The DSS rig was like an F-16. Light, streamlined, uncluttered, and the feeling of freedom was amazing. Nothing squeezing my chest, no useless pockets, I dropped 8 lbs of lead immediately. No inherent buoyancy. And traveling with it was amazing.

OK, let's take this statement by Jim.

Jim's use of streamlined is as a verb, not a none.

The way Jim types that statement is not an opinion stated as fact; it is a valid powerful opinion. :shocked2:

TRANSITIVE VERB:
stream·lined, stream·lin·ing, stream·lines

1. To construct or design in a form that offers the least resistance to fluid flow.
2. To improve the appearance or efficiency of; modernize.
3.
1. To organize.
2. To simplify.

NOUN:

1. A line that is parallel to the direction of flow of a fluid at a given instant.
2. The path of one particle in a flowing fluid.
3. A contour of a body constructed so as to offer minimum resistance to a fluid flow.

Please notice that noun #3 (A contour of a body constructed so as to offer minimum resistance to a fluid flow) directly correlates to verb #1(To construct or design in a form that offers the least resistance to fluid flow).

But the other verb usages; improve appearance &/or efficiency, modernize, organize, simplify, those are all possibilities with a BP/W. But not EVERY BP/W BC is more streamlined than ALL vest BC's. Even the same BP/W's might be vastly different in streamlining after each user get's it rigged.

Also, since BP/W's are designed to be user customized, who is to say user customization of other BC's does not happen? Since I put different people in all my BC's, I leave the shoulder straps and sternum straps long and adjustable. But if I was just a BC user with "my" one BC that only I use, only diving warm water in a stretchy 5 mm or merino lined 5 mm wet suit, I could easily make the adjustment lengths much shorter. I cut the weight integrated pockets off my SeaQuest Balance. I see XS tank strap weight pockets on all styles of BC's

And not everyone thinks the same thing is efficient, modernized, organized, simple, so even using streamlined as a verb is still an opinion.

Saying my BP/W w/ 18# wing is faster than every Vest BC I have ever used is not really a proper statement even if you made some measurements. Look at swim meets; one meet Mark wins but next meet, in the same pool, same lanes, Michael wins with a slower time than last time. Maybe you had a really good day one day compared to the other day? Maybe something about the conditions isn't exactly the same one day compared to the other day, but you go with the BC that feels best so....

Saying my BP/W w/ 18# wing feels faster than every Vest BC I have ever used is really a proper statement even if you didn't make some measurements.

 

[Tortuga68]

I have made it my pet peeve to point out when the....

"INTERNET EXPERTS STATE OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT"

Go make a thread in whine & cheese then

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Halemano: I think you caused some confusion and/or insult over your use of the word "warped" in the context of your description of other people's opinions towards BP&W.

Did you mean to imply that a positive recommendation for BP&W was somehow perverted or a 'misdirection' from the true path of scuba diving BCD configuration?

It was also not likely the smartest idea to make it personal by centering out one individual by posting only their posts in the initial "warped" post.

If you take another look at the OP....

The quotes and the links are arranged in chronological reverse...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/369121-warped-view-dive-world.html

That thread came first.....

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/new-divers-those-considering-diving/30911-jacket-bc-wing-bc.html

Then a math challenged member resurrected an old thread, just for me....

Then I quoted part of post #41 from that thread....

When a very, very opinionated person loudly, continually and forcefully states their opinion, over and over, without ever indicating it is just their opinion, not only may beginners and lurkers mistakenly think that opinion might be fact, but often it seems the opinionated person actually begins to believe that they are speaking fact.

Part of post #46 from that thread (not directed to me)....

My point above about the bp/wing subgroup of divers, is more about mindset...the much smaller group of bp/wing divers, as a group, have typically gone this route becuase they wanted to be more streamlined and to have a system that allows easier weight shifting and customization to achieve optimal trim and perfect fit.

And the entire post #57 from that thread (also not directed at me)....

I would say it is more about the "right shop" or the "right instructor". Some are too close minded to see the best tool right in front of them, and would never allow themselves to use the tool properly.

I DO say the bp/wing is always the right tool.

If one took the time to look at the info in the OP, there was plenty to work with. Some evidently chose to work without taking time to look.

 

[DevonDiver]

A shark is more streamlined underwater than an elephant.

I can't state that as a 'fact' because I can't cite a published scientific study into the relative aquadynamic tendancies of sharks and elephants?

So... Halemano will pedantically raise thread about "Warped views of Elephants" and castigate people for making common sense conclusions.

 

[RJP]

So... Halemano will pedantically raise thread about "Warped views of Elephants" and castigate people for making common sense conclusions.

Do you have any scientific data to support your assertion?

:cool2: