Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[berndo]

Human Factors is psychology, it has nothing to do with how a rebreather works.

If you think you can judge anything that happened in these incidents without any knowlege or experience in diving, let alone cave or ccr diving, you're way off. You have no idea what students can or can't do from behind your computer.
This HF thing is not new. I read plenty of his stuff and and will continue to do so. I have messaged back and forth with him about one case were I disagreed with some of his take. He is a normal dude you can talk to and disagree with, not need to put HF or him on a pedestal. HF is a model and not hard science or the bibel, reasonable people (that know something about diving) can disagree on how to apply it in a given case.
It's essentially the same concept you learn about in rescue class with some stuff added put in fancier language, it's not very complicated.

If Edd signed off on his cave dpv, he’s gotta be at least mechanically competent…

Did he do all his cave and ccr training with Edd too? They seem to be at CA alot.
I see the look in Gus's and Woody's eyes when they look at Edd.

True but PADI doesn't matter for this discussion. Gus did not get PADI certified

I don't know how we got to insurance and PADI. I agree that neither matters.

 

[Aura]

Not that Gus “fast tracked” his CCR certs or Cave certs

That is literally what he did. Blasted through all levels of training without building up any more experience on any level than what was required as the bare minimum to progress to the next. I don't know why you want to dispute that.

Meh, I don't think that's fair, that could have been somebody else without any followers just as well. We just heard about it because he has a youtube channel. I have not met him but on the channel he doesn't seem to be more or less full of himselfs than many other people.

You're again ignoring the entire human factors part of this. Read about Doc Deep if you don't understand how building a community of sycophants can be disastrous. Every time someone calls the Dive Talk fellows out on the dangerous things they do, they're met with an incredible arrogance and dismissal from the guys themselves, and especially from their fanatical followers. There is no chance they will change their approach to diving unless someone dies as a result of it. And that is exactly the problem.

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[Manatee Diver]

Did he do all his cave and ccr training with Edd too? They seem to be at CA alot.

No @Dr. Doug Ebersole did their cave ccr.

 

[crofrog]

In the US maybe, I don't pay attention to the US insurance market. I don't live there. PADIs and SSIs market is international.

Where are they headquartered?

 

[Manatee Diver]

IMHO HF couldn't have prevented this accident. On the face of it we have someone that appeared to be rational acting irrationally unexpectedly. But you can use HF to look at ways to prevent it from happening in the future, like team verification of gases at analysis and when the tank is put in the water. Again IMHO HF is about preventing future accidents.

 

[crofrog]

IMHO HF couldn't have prevented this accident. On the face of it we have someone that appeared to be rational acting irrationally unexpectedly. But you can use HF to look at ways to prevent it from happening in the future, like team verification of gases at analysis and when the tank is put in the water. Again IMHO HF is about preventing future accidents.

That’s largely mitigated by team diving and human factors is how you address that in the design of a system

 

[berndo]

You've been given multiple concrete examples of what can be learned from this, yet you keep going on about how it's all meaningless.

I saw your examples.

Since you're asking for concrete things that can change as a result from this: I think this tragedy has, more than anything, shown us that pre-dive checks should not be left to the individuals, however skilled and experienced they may be.

If you think this accident has shown us anything new, you have not read any or very many accidents reports.
If you learned from this, I'm glad, but there was nothing new here, whatsoever.

Nothing new about DocDeep either. There have been many of the deep record cowboys over the years. DocDeep just had a catchier name.

The problem I tried to point out is several times is, that we (people that have been trained to a certain level) know the issues for the most part but people elect to cut corners and take higher risk. Not everbody forgets the checklist, people think they don't need it. I don't know how to fix it.
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[berndo]

Where are they headquartered?

SSI's HQ is in Germany and when the US causes PADI too many issues they will move HQ.
Even if PADI went under, which I doubt, the PADI shops will switch to SSI or some other PADI like agency.

 

[tomfcrist]

Did he do all his cave and ccr training with Edd too? They seem to be at CA alot.
I see the look in Gus's and Woody's eyes when they look at Edd.

Evidently not, but I do agree that they at least seem to idolize certain people, and have stated a few times in their videos “if it’s with you yes” when asked by certain people if they wanted to do some obscure ****. Could be why they didn’t question a ******** team plan when Mike was the leader…IDK for sure.

That is literally what he did. Blasted through all levels of training without building up any more experience on any level than what was required as the bare minimum to progress to the next. I don't know why you want to dispute that

I’m not disputing that they met the minimum requirements to be certified by whichever agency issued their cards…I’m implying that those minimums don’t prepare you for the real world of diving, where you have to be able to make good decisions based off actual knowledge of what could go wrong. They probably know how to calculate and not violate thirds on OC. It took experience for Gus to realize that improvising by using a shallow Dil/bailout to go on a deep dive is a ****** plan. At a bare minimum it’s high risk, which is fine if you are willing to accept the risk of dying just to see some new cave(can’t wait til after lunch when your gear is configured correctly)…I just don’t think that’s an acceptable risk…he probably doesn’t anymore either.

 

[berndo]

How do you think the issue has been fixed in high risk work environments?

Scuba diving is not a high risk work environment it's not even a high risk hobby.
It's a hobby that's pretty safe and mostly run by instructors with little training and little experience. Crofrog pointed out that training part very accurately. Accident rates are very low. In contrast to commercial aviation, there is no money in scuba and thankfully scuba in not regulated by most governments.

What different opinion?

《Mod edit》 The problem is not knowlege the problem is people deliberately ignore stuff. Why do you think people dive deep air or not mark tanks? People get in their car drunk because they think they can still drive well enough, not because they never heard about deadly accidents or because they don't know alcohol impaires. It's an attitude issue more so than a lack of knowledge issue.