Two fatalities in Monterey

[Thalassamania]

This is an interesting question, yes. To some extent, all training dives including open water dives are to some degree, "trust me" dives. So given that, how do you assess whether a breach of duty of care has occurred? I don't really know the answer except that perhaps one might judge the degree of risk involved in order to find a good delineator? But again, with something like risk we are talking about something qualitative that can be at times difficult to quantify.

As prudent instructors, we take measures to mitigate that risk. In open water courses, as you know, we run through skills training in the pool and do academic work to prepare the students for their open water experience, but no matter how much of this we do, it is still a trust me dive. A lot depends on what is judged as acceptable by us the instructors and the agencies. If you compare this scenario to that of taking a newly OW certified child into a cave on a trust me dive, I think there is no comparison as the latter I would consider to be poor judgement.

Your cave comparison is not exactly a fair one in the context of this accident. It is generally accepted that in order to cave dive one requires specific training by a recognized cave training agency by a qualified instructor. This is not the case for someone diving in the ocean for the first time, or should it be, according to your analogy?

I did not mean to imply that the cave comparison was a fair one, it is at an extreme, but that extreme blends into a continuum and, "where does it become a fair one?" in light of the training environment caution is a reasonable point for discussion.

You know, the question of preparing someone to go from Lake Tahoe to Monterey is kind of an interesting one. Tahoe is colder than Monterey, especially in the winter and spring, so my guess is that the divers were well accustomed to the exposure protection they had to use for this dive. Tahoe has at least as much depth as you can reach in Monterey Bay, so having to watch depth and time shouldn't have been unfamiliar, either. My guess is that Tahoe doesn't have much current, but dives within Monterey Bay don't most of the time, either (at least to my knowledge). So the only major difference would be exposure to much reduced visibility, compared with Lake Tahoe.

Although reduced vis is something that can bewilder divers, remember that these two had already done two dives in those conditions, so it should not have come as a surprise. Nor does reduced visibility justify a failure to monitor gas supply.

Thinking about it, and again realizing it was NOT their first dive in the bay, I really don't see adaptation from Lake Tahoe as a big issue here. I'd be more suspicious that it was excitement at the amount of things there were to see that might have distracted them from good gas management.

There are elements that make diving Monterey different from Tahoe, waves, currents, kelp, sea life and apprehension come quickly to mind. I don't know if these were critical factors in this incident, I just ask the question in a more general sense. The agencies make great stock of the caveat but what are the nuts and bolts of heeding the warning?

 

[Cave Diver]

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[no1cr500racer]

Having just done my first 3 dives on the way to my OW certification, I was very interested in this tragic story, wanting to know how something like this could have happened to two people! I found it nearly unbelievable. Facts I understand of exactly what happened I realize may never be known, but it has given me a greater appriciation of several things.
1. My instructor drilling us over and over again on several things I thought I had down right from the start, like Clearing masks, removing regulators and replaceing them while under water, OTA drills, and all the while I am thinking "I have it down".
2. The importance of the buddy diving system!!!
3. Checking our air during the dive, over and over again.
Our Instructor drilled us on these and other things so often, they have really become almost like a reflex now, and "IF" there was ever a emergency situation, I am confident that training would help me react in a calm and correct way, after all, I have already done them, over and over and over and over and over, I think you get the picture. And for that, I say, Thanks Scot.

 

[ScubaVideo]

Having just done my first 3 dives on the way to my OW certification, I was very interested in this tragic story, wanting to know how something like this could have happened to two people! I found it nearly unbelievable. Facts I understand of exactly what happened I realize may never be known, but it has given me a greater appriciation of several things.
1. My instructor drilling us over and over again on several things I thought I had down right from the start, like Clearing masks, removing regulators and replaceing them while under water, OTA drills, and all the while I am thinking "I have it down".
2. The importance of the buddy diving system!!!
3. Checking our air during the dive, over and over again.
Our Instructor drilled us on these and other things so often, they have really become almost like a reflex now, and "IF" there was ever a emergency situation, I am confident that training would help me react in a calm and correct way, after all, I have already done them, over and over and over and over and over, I think you get the picture. And for that, I say, Thanks Scot.

I agree with your comments up to a point. You need a 2.1 - the buddy system can fail - it seems to have in this situation. You also need to be self reliant. There is a big tank of air above you, know how to access it safely. Make sure you can if your OOG with no auto inflate, no air in you lungs to get your BC buoyant.

Now I remember why my first BC had CO2 cartridges - emergency egress -

 

[ItsBruce]

Since there has been commentary about agencies and standards and the assertion that what happened here was due to agencies having lax standards, let me ask a question: What exactly is the relationship between an agency and the instruction a diver gets?

Here is why I ask: As I understand it, an agency will let a dive shop say that it is approved by that agency if the shop meets certain minimum criteria, such as having at least certain insurance, providing at least a certain amount of instruction on at least certain topics, etc. A shop is not allowed to say it is approved by an agency if it will sell air or rent equipment to someone who does not have a card saying they have been certified. The same goes for insurance. Insurance is conditioned on the shop complying with certain criteria, including but not limited to not selling air or renting equipment to divers without certification cards.

I am unaware of any law that requires a dive shop or operator to be approved by an agency. However, a shop or operator who is not approved is at a competitive disadvantage when compared to one that is.

Shops and operators comply with the minimum requirements so the get the benefit of being approved.

Nowhere does any agency limit what a shop or instructor can teach a student or limit how much the skills get practiced. However, shops and instructors, who must generally make a livelihood, are not apt to do much more than what they are required to do as it detracts from the money they earn.

So, if an instructor gives someone who does not deserve a c-card, a c-card, how is it the agency's fault any more than the state legislature's fault for not having specific laws, or even Congress' fault?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

So your saying all the non diver paint ballers are having to go to the non agency "approved" dive shops to get air?

Shops pay annual membership. FWIS, the more hoops the shop jumps through "for" an agency, the greater the "reward" of getting to pay a higher annual membership.

The highest hoops seem to include "only" certifying divers under that agency. Kind of hard to teach a course you can't issue a certification for. The dive student would be better served getting an IANTD Adv. Nitrox cert from someone else rather than getting an SSI Nitrox with the same curriculum at the SSI only shop.

seems pretty off topic.

 

[Layman]

Gear recovered in teens' diving deaths | NevadaAppeal.com

 

[Layman]

So Jon, does the yellow rope sound weird to you?

 

[beautybelow]

I am not really sure what you are looking for here.

If you read through the other post that you put your link in you will see somewhere, someone mentioned something about someone hearing, speculating, having heard, thinking maybe that the people involved may have had to tie the two sets of equipment together and drop them back in the water after the divers had been brought to the surface.

This may explain the yellow rope.

Or was it the color of the rope that had you wondering? Yellow is quite common in poly rope.

If you are trying to uncover a little drama in your first couple of posts here on scubaboard you are well behind the mark, but I think you probably know that.

 

[DandyDon]

So Jon, does the yellow rope sound weird to you?

Nope. It was explained in the other thread where you first posted that the boys were recovered with gear, but the rescue boat was too crowded, so they tied the gear together with rope and threw it overboard in the heat of the emergency. The divers who found it also posted on the thread personally. Nothing wrong at all there.

Edit: I see they merged the threads. Cool