Two fatalities in Monterey

[Dhboner]

Intentionally overstated to widen the focus.



I see this as a failure of the entire system that places kids of this age into this sort of a situation while relying on a novice buddy to perform some sort of magic. There is blame and it is widely shared among almost anything involved in this situation.

Again, my opinion. Knowing absolutely nothing other than what I read here, I don't really belong in this thread but it hits very close to home. -felt compelled to post.

Very sad.

I was on a dive to Devil's Throat in Cozumel a while back and the DM (who was with our group...not local) buddied up the two least experienced divers. On the way down, one of them was having ear problems and the other seemingly oblivious, continued his descent. Before we entered the "throat" I signalled my buddy and we caught up to the two novices and I changed up the buddy pairs to have one experienced diver in each pair (I stayed with the "ear problem").

They had no business on that dive but the DM seemed indifferent to their lack of experience and didn't see fit to at least team them up with a more experienced diver.

We have to drill into new divers that diving is incredibly fun but ANY dive can turn into a cluster $%#* so never be complacent and never allow a DM (or anyone else) to put you in a situation that makes you uncomfortable. And remember, younger divers, particularly male divers, have a hard time checking their egos at the dock and might never let you know they are nervous.

 

[mdb]

This thread has been very informative. The informed input from Ken Kurtis, NWGD, Dandy Don, and others, has sparked some lively, but good, conversation on what to do when things go wrong U/W.

There are now 13,946+ views. That is a good thing. I hope a lot of new divers have been reading along and getting some good food for thought.

 

[Lobzilla]

On the topic of responsibility and teenagers started by bubbletrouble:

Once we rule out bad gas (yes, I know the chance of that is minuscule) we can conclude one fact easily without knowing the exact details:

The two boys died because they did not understand or did not respect the rules of the environment they were in.

Disrespect to the rules of the physical world is somewhat age related but even more a societal problem. Plenty of adults are totally oblivious to the fact that Mother Nature does not care about our popularity, status, or how expensive our scuba gear was.

In aviation, I can teach and preach all day long but sometimes there is no other choice than to scare a student to the point of crying for mommy before his mind is open to the fact that if you break the rules of the air, the ground will break your airplane and you inside of it.

Failing students because of concerns about a mismatch of skills and attitude is not going to solve the problem. They go to a different instructor, get the card there, and continue what you tried to stop. Some people are an accident waiting to happen but the majority just needs a wake-up call.

When I take friends to the shooting range, I tell them to treat every gun as if it were loaded. In fact, every gun I bring is loaded with a weak blank. Once one of these blanks goes off 'accidentally', the repeated message about treating a gun with respect really sinks in - for good.

In the world of scuba, I encouraged my first OW instructor to swap my tank for an empty one, turn the valve off, loosen the reg, etc. I asked him to test my diligence. He would not do it because of legal concerns. My AOW instructor got miffed when I suggested doing 'fake' deco stops on the way up for practice. In his opinion, that challenged his authority about the syllabus and would not be 'legal' in AOW . I leave it up to you to guess whether he asked me for my gas analysis or my gas planning before a 100' dive.

 

[diver 85]

"Blue Sparkle

PS: In my OW class the instructor advised us not to put our masks on our foreheads when on the surface because apparently divers in distress tend to yank their masks off or perhaps shove them up on top of their forehead - they did not want to see us that way and get a false alarm just because we felt like putting our masks up (too bad, it seems like it would be very convenient!) So I guess it must happen with some regularity (?)"

That's not the way Mike Nelson used to do it......they musta not watched much Seahunt...

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I am allowed to withhold certs due to attitude, don't feel student is ready for a card, or any other reason I would consider enough that they would be in danger or a danger to someone else. I have refused students aow training based on their lack of experience and basic skill level. A poor attitude towards safety protocols will also result not only in non certification but will stop the class cold with no refund or redo of the class. Its in my learning agreement that every student signs. Agencies only issue a card. They do not certify the divers as fit to dive. The instructor does or at least should. Overriding an instructors judgment by someone who has never seen the student is a major reason I teach the program I do through the agency I do. I have the final say. Not them.

 

[Tortuga68]

Remind us which agency that is Jim?

 

[tddfleming]

I have no irons in this fire, but imho, i think that some of this could have been avoided had a couple of experienced divers been bringing up the rear. To play look out for the laggers and the ones that may have fallen behind for some reason.

I can only visualize how 19 students would look UW. I am sure disorganized would be one word that comes to mind. No matter whoes at fault, if there is any fault to lay, these were just teenage kids. We can harp all day long about gas mang. dropping weights and everything else, but these two were under age and still considered kids and preperations should have been made as such. More adult supervision, paring the kids with experienced adults, adding more adult divers on the dive, what have you. I would like to know how many adults were actually on the dive with the kids. I often wonder when something like this happens and it is reported, "when we surfaced they were missing from the group." I envision them being the last in the long line with nobody looking back to make sure all are still there. Kids have to be supervised at all school dances, proms, outings, what makes this any different? There should have been more adult experienced divers in the water with the 19 kids.

I have considered sending my daughter on scuba type trips and this is one reason that I always change my mind. If I could not be there and diving along with them than she should not be going. Granted my kid is much younger, but hearing stories like this are one of my worst nightmares.

 

[DandyDon]

I really think it is good for any newbie to hire a private DM for the first day or two of ocean diving.

 

[Lobzilla]

I have no irons in this fire, but imho, i think that some of this could have been avoided had a couple of experienced divers been bringing up the rear. To play look out for the laggers and the ones that may have fallen behind for some reason.

I can only visualize how 19 students would look UW. I am sure disorganized would be one word that comes to mind. No matter whoes at fault, if there is any fault to lay, these were just teenage kids. We can harp all day long about gas mang. dropping weights and everything else, but these two were under age and still considered kids and preperations should have been made as such. More adult supervision, paring the kids with experienced adults, adding more adult divers on the dive, what have you. I would like to know how many adults were actually on the dive with the kids. I often wonder when something like this happens and it is reported, "when we surfaced they were missing from the group." I envision them being the last in the long line with nobody looking back to make sure all are still there. Kids have to be supervised at all school dances, proms, outings, what makes this any different? There should have been more adult experienced divers in the water with the 19 kids.

I have considered sending my daughter on scuba type trips and this is one reason that I always change my mind. If I could not be there and diving along with them than she should not be going. Granted my kid is much younger, but hearing stories like this are one of my worst nightmares.

At 14 you can fly a glider and a balloon solo. With 16 you can get the private pilots license (PPL) for glider or balloon. The minimum ages for powered flight are 16 solo, PPL at 17.

From my own experience I conclude that flying demands more maturity but the instruction is orders of magnitude better. On many training flights there is no one sitting next to you. You are supposed to learn to be responsible for your own actions.

I thinks that the 'buddy system' is one of the big problems in scuba. You either have a skilled, tight team or you should threat the dive as a solo dive. Nothing is worse than a false sense of security as this accident proves.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that part of the false sense of security comes from the agencies and instructors not being honest with the public about the real risks and about how well prepared today's students are to meet those risks ... to me it is an "informed consent" issue, at least in part.