Two fatalities in Monterey

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Until I took a Rescue class, I did not think much about how violent a panicked diver could get. I think experienced instructors/DMs/AIs/boat crews have a healthy appreciation for this.
I had taught several Rescue classes before I truly developed an appreciation for what a panicked diver can do ... the best simulations in class don't come close to the reality. I only had to deal with it for real once ... and by the time I got that fellow to the surface I was scared, half-undressed, and sore in places I don't even want to think about.

If more comprehensive rescue procedures had been part of the basic OW class, would this accident have happened?
Possibly. Look, we can speculate all we want ... and probably never come close to what really happened. It's quite possible that additional training wouldn't have made a difference. These were teens ... they have a mind of their own ... and in that mind, they're immortal. Most adults can't, at the best of times, figure out what's going on inside the head of a teen-ager ... and these were not the best of times.

I don't know the answer to these questions, but it's something to think about...
NAUI trains basic rescue at the OW level ... but even among my best students, I often wonder how effective it would be in a real case of dealing with someone who's panicking.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Richard, I, for one, am unwilling to ask my friends for specific information on this incident. They are "not doing so well" but they are getting a lot of support from within their community.

I just can't imagine how I'd be responding to this had I been one of the instructors -- and I pray I'll never find out.

As much as I want them to be "not responsible", I know it could easily go both ways. Especially when certain agencies prohibit teaching "gas management" as we generally think about that here.

I'm sure legal counsel prohibits any discussion of the dead boys' training, skills, attitude, or really anything meaningful anyway so I know I shouldn't have inquired.
 
To me that seems like an odd thing to do. If panicked I don't think pulling a mask off would be something I wouldn't do. It wouldn't seem like something that would make sense, it would serve no purpose. Not saying it isn't something that happens it just seems like an odd thing to do.

... they'll not only pull their mask off, they'll pull yours off too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
lowviz:
I think that you just got it into words.

Our children are programmed to succeed so they behave that way. There is always that hand that reaches down at the last minute. It just doesn't work like that in diving.

Diving is fun, easy, and potentially dangerous. The first two parts are well addressed by the agencies. I had the advantage of an instructor who came to see that my son was "invincible". His response was to stick his finger in my face (literally) and tell me that my job is to always be the better diver. The message was clear, we are heading back north and there is nothing more he can do for us. Sobering thought, never left me.

There is no easy answer and the first step to problem solving is not to assign blame but to improve what is in place.

lowviz;5838657

You are right in what you say about children being programmed to succeed. There are no losers in sports or even academics nowadays as it could be detrimental to a childs self esteem :no: Kids neither know nor expect failure. The majority probably have never felt fear or panic - like when we got into trouble at school and knew we were going home for a whoopin :depressed: I must admit that I am happy to say that my 13 year old son experienced panic.

Like others his age he found the whole course easy and sailed through the pool sessions but on a subsequent private lesson (more for his old Mom) he was at 10ft doing the blow in the bcd drill and when he put his reg in he had no breath left and in a panic forgot the purge, even though the instructor offered his octo my son was not thinking and bolted for the surface. Fortunately in a pool and not 60ft down!

This event taught him more than anything else could have and made him realize how dangerous this sport is and to know panic and think things through if possible. It really did give him a fright and he went down and practiced that drill 5 times with the purge before he was happy.

If those two teenagerss were anything like the majority of entitled kids out there then death is just an abstract concept and could never happen to them - it wouldn't be fair after all. Not saying they are bad kids, far from it, just kids probably used to having the world handed to them. I can see one of them helping the other never thinking the outcome would be anything but good. My heart goes out to the family.
 
To me that seems like an odd thing to do. If panicked I don't think pulling a mask off would be something I wouldn't do. It wouldn't seem like something that would make sense, it would serve no purpose. Not saying it isn't something that happens it just seems like an odd thing to do.
Thought to be a reaction akin to claustrophobia.
I think that you just got it into words.

Our children are programmed to succeed so they behave that way. There is always that hand that reaches down at the last minute. It just doesn't work like that in diving.

Diving is fun, easy, and potentially dangerous. The first two parts are well addressed by the agencies. I had the advantage of an instructor who came to see that my son was "invincible". His response was to stick his finger in my face (literally) and tell me that my job is to always be the better diver. The message was clear, we are heading back north and there is nothing more he can do for us. Sobering thought, never left me.

There is no easy answer and the first step to problem solving is not to assign blame but to improve what is in place.
Rather hard to fix a problem without a determination of what the problem is ... that involves, like it or not, blame.
The following are, at best, tangential (some speculative) discussion points, but I think I'll share them anyway...

Do instructional agencies give instructors enough latitude to deny certification to an OW student based on the student's attitude/maturity level alone? FWIW, I'm not just talking about younger dive students. It could be a middle-aged or older student as well.
No they do not.
We hear about "standards"-based curricula and the word "mastery" bandied about with certain scuba instructional agencies. We also have instructors who admit that just because they wouldn't complete the task/skill in a certain way, so long as the student fulfills the "standard" (the agency's definition of "mastery"/proficiency is attained), the task is considered completed.
True and a shame.
Do "standards" ever address the mental attitude of a student? The reason I ask specifically about this is that an instructor would not be empowered to withhold/deny certification to a student for this reason if the standards never addressed it. Furthermore, it would be at the discretion of the instructor to even mention approaching the sport with the "right mental attitude" (conservative gas management, conservative dive planning, being a good buddy, not diving in too challenging conditions, making it a habit to practice OW skills on a consistent basis, thinking through emergency situations, being assertive enough to do the right thing despite authority figures instructing otherwise, etc.) in the course of the class.
NAUI does in the concept of would I allow this person to teach my loved ones to dive (and by extension I would allow my loved ones to dive with this person).
I realize that Junior Open Water Diver programs exist, and AFAIK the certification for a diver ages 12-14 requires that a certified adult accompany him/her on all dives. In this sense, "to accompany" means to buddy up with (I think). Why is this restriction placed on Junior Open Water divers? If the reason for having adult supervision is to compensate for a potential lack of maturity...why draw the line at age 15? Is there something special about the maturity level of 15-year-olds? Is it because 15-year-olds can get driver's permits? Are 15-year-olds thought to possess enough maturity to handle the responsibilities of an OW diving situation?
I don't think age, per se, is the issue. I made my first dive at six and by 15 was an "old salt."
I think back to when I was in high school. I participated in varsity-level sports and played a leadership role on all of the teams with which I played. I took challenging academic classes. I was active in student government. I was responsible by all accounts, from the perspective of any third party. From the ages 15-17, was I mature enough to handle the responsibilities of OW diving? I don't think so. Realistic assessment of my own limits wasn't in my vocabulary at that time.
Proof is in the pudding ... I guess that I was.
In this incident, we have two teenagers (ages 16 and 17) who somehow got in over their heads. We also know that they were both on the football team (JV?). I'm thinking back to when I played high school sports and what my attitude toward scuba diving might have been. Participation in team sports really drives home the notion of taking care of other players on your team. I think these guys knew what it meant to be dive buddies and they took that responsibility seriously. Unfortunately, I get the sneaking suspicion that that healthy I've-got-my-brother's-back and we-can-do-this-if-we-just-stick-together attitude may have led to the double fatality.
The problem (would appear to be) I've-got-my-brother's-back and we-can-do-this-if-we-just-stick-together ... but ... somehow no one provided me with the skill(s) to get it done.
It's a difficult thing to do, but if you try to place yourself in the shoes of the second diver who was perhaps responding to the OOA diver, what would be going through your mind as the incident unfolded? I can imagine the OOA diver was frantically searching for an alternative air source. I can imagine that a physical altercation of some sort ensued, based mainly on the information that one diver was found maskless. I can also imagine that the panicked OOA diver probably escalated the situation to a level of violence that the second diver was not prepared for. After all, we are talking about a couple of football players here.
Rather an easy situation for two divers who have been trained to deal with it, the situation (OOA?) should not have occurred and if it did should have been easy to deal with.
Until I took a Rescue class, I did not think much about how violent a panicked diver could get. I think experienced instructors/DMs/AIs/boat crews have a healthy appreciation for this.
There should not have been a panicked diver, and even so panicked divers are not really that hard to deal with ... they just want to go up.
If more comprehensive rescue procedures had been part of the basic OW class, would this accident have happened?
Gas management and air monitoring might have been more useful. After that air sharing drills, last but not least ... rescue.
If each teenager had been buddied up with a certified responsible adult with rescue training, could something like this have happened?
I don't think that the training received or retained by adults is any better.
To be clear, I'm not placing the blame for this tragedy on any instructional agency, instructor, dive op, parent, or even on the teenagers themselves.
Not clear whom to point the finger at ... yet.
 
......Rather hard to fix a problem without a determination of what the problem is ... that involves, like it or not, blame.
............

Intentionally overstated to widen the focus.



I see this as a failure of the entire system that places kids of this age into this sort of a situation while relying on a novice buddy to perform some sort of magic. There is blame and it is widely shared among almost anything involved in this situation.

Again, my opinion. Knowing absolutely nothing other than what I read here, I don't really belong in this thread but it hits very close to home. -felt compelled to post.

Very sad.
 
PS: In my OW class the instructor advised us not to put our masks on our foreheads when on the surface because apparently divers in distress tend to yank their masks off or perhaps shove them up on top of their forehead - they did not want to see us that way and get a false alarm just because we felt like putting our masks up (too bad, it seems like it would be very convenient!) So I guess it must happen with some regularity (?)
This is not directly related to this accident but there is more to the mask on forehead on the surface risk.
A wave can surprise the uncovered diver, perhaps knocking the mask off, worse - initiating panic then.

Such a diver may also remove his reg on the surface, then get hit by a wave, then start into choking and/or panic.​
My home bud & I like to leave our masks on our eyes and regs in our mouths until we are safely back on the boat or shore, with the exception of when the crew pulls out kit aboard a small boat before we exit - and then we release the reg only at the last moment. I carry a folded snorkel in my pocket with a velcro attachment and have switched to it at some such times.
 
PS: In my OW class the instructor advised us not to put our masks on our foreheads when on the surface because apparently divers in distress tend to yank their masks off or perhaps shove them up on top of their forehead - they did not want to see us that way and get a false alarm just because we felt like putting our masks up (too bad, it seems like it would be very convenient!) So I guess it must happen with some regularity (?)
Not in my experience. A panicked diver is quite likely to shed their mask ... and if you are attempting to control their ascent, they're likely to shed yours too with all their flailing trying to get away from you. It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to see a panicked diver with their mask on their forehead ... if they remove it, it's more likely going to be on the bottom. And in any case, there are far more visible signs of distress than mask position ... and it's quite easy to tell the difference between a distressed diver and one who merely pushed their mask up while relaxing on the surface.

Some instructors like to perpetuate stories like that ... I don't know why, as all it does in the long term is damage their credibility.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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