Trust-me dives- A Personal Opinion

[BabyDuck]

Put another way, the go no go decision turns on the strength of the stronger team member, not the weaker one.

i think this is an excellent definition of an 'old trust-me' or 'johnny's new & improved blind trust-me' dive.

it's true that without some trust, you'd never be able to dive with anyone stronger *or* weaker than you are. what matters is someone knowing enough to be comfortable with the plan, not just following a plan they don't understand. i know it would be stupid of me to bounce dive the doria, but someone fresh out of ow might be gullible to let a buddy plan something like that.

 

[Thalassamania]

Only if you trust me :14: .

Johnny

I think I trust you.

 

[Charlie99]

A trust-me dive, in its strictest sense, occurs anytime a more experienced diver leads a less experienced diver to an area unknown to the less experienced diver.

vs.

I think the point is not to engage in a dive that you cannot abort at any time, without a reasonable chance of survival should your buddy/leader vanish or become incapacitated.

My definition is more along the lines of JimC. It's trust me dive if I am not able to, at any time, safely ABORT the dive without assistance.

At any and all times, a diver should have a clear plan in his mind as to how he will get both himself and his buddy to safety in the event of problems. Going beyond those limits is what turns it into a trust me dive.

Using the "safe abort" definition, it is easy to envision a variety of types of dives where a guide or more experienced diver is essential to "completing the mission" but at the same time, all divers still have the ability to safely terminate the dive. A simple but common open water example is a resort DM-led dive where I am dependent upon his local knowledge and skill to find certain wildlife, but am not blindly dependent upon him for the planning of the dive.

Charlie Allen

 

[rjack321]

This is mostly specific to cave diving, not OW, IMHO.

Recreational OW doesn't really have much in the way of "blind trust me dives" - as long as you stay within OW limits.

Tech dives can have some trust me issues when one diver doesn't know or understand the deco schedule very well.

Cave dives are the 'worst' example for blind trust me dives since you can do stupid stuff like visual jumps and not drop your own markers. Essentially rely on the leader's mental map for your safety.

 

[Doubles]

This is mostly specific to cave diving, not OW, IMHO.

Recreational OW doesn't really have much in the way of "blind trust me dives" - as long as you stay within OW limits.

Tech dives can have some trust me issues when one diver doesn't know or understand the deco schedule very well.

Cave dives are the 'worst' example for blind trust me dives since you can do stupid stuff like visual jumps and not drop your own markers. Essentially rely on the leader's mental map for your safety.

My opinion is that every aspect of diving has the potential for a "trust me dive" scenario.

An example of an OW trust me dive would be the nitrox diver who does not test the mix provided by the dive shop etc. Or the diver who "shares" the buddies computer and so on.

As for the specific phrase - I don't know that we need a politically correct phrase. If the phrase used makes divers stop and think about what they are about to embark on - then it was a good phrase and and the intended result achieved. A good topic for those long surface intervals

Cheers

Steve

 

[rjack321]

OK, but this is the cave diving forum

Bringing in possible blind trust me scenarios might be a topic better addressed elsewhere.

 

[Johnny Richards]

....I don't know that we need a politically correct phrase....

The last thing in the world I want to do is be politically correct- trust me. It wasn't my intent to create another pc-ism, but merely to point out the fallacy that all trust-me dives are inherently dangerous.

Johnny

 

[Doubles]

The last thing in the world I want to do is be politically correct- trust me. It wasn't my intent to create another pc-ism, but merely to point out the fallacy that all trust-me dives are inherently dangerous.

Johnny

Greetings Johnny - a poor choice of words on my part. I think the thread is great and the intent very important to us all

Thanks for starting this thread

Cheers

Steve

 

[GDI]

The are different forms of trust.

Do I trust my team member to perform in a way that is independant of me for his safety and yet function within the team?
Do I trust and follow a more experienced diver into a system but retain my ability to exit solo?
Do I relinguish all common sense and blindly trust the other diver to take me in and bring me out?

Instructional dives of all types have a sense of trust in the relationship between the student and the instructor, but a good instructor of which both Johnny and Jim are uses this trust in a context of teaching the importance of self reliance. We understand and attempt to have our students understand that the moment we enter the water things can happen and that they must not rely on us.

There are two statements I have coined in teaching my students.

1. Every diver must be taught to be solely responsible for themselves but to enjoy the sport as a social activity.
" Diving is a solo responsibility conducted as a social activity"

2. Every diver must learn that their trust in me must be limited to their comfort zone, their awareness, their skill, their training and their equipment the least of which dictates the dive plan. This is determined by oneself of oneself or ones perception of the other diver. Learning to call the dive.
" Never do a trust me dive-- Trust me on This"

Johnny and Jim excellent points

 

[jeandiver]

The Bean gets up and says:

"ANYONE can turn ANY DIVE at ANY TIME for ANY REASON !!! "

The Bean sits back down again ...

I have learned that Prudence and a Good Thumb are great things to have ...

Well said by all ...

Jeano Beano
AKA Knows when to thumb em ... :11: