Trust-me dives- A Personal Opinion

[daniel f aleman]

Well said Johnny (you too Jim); that's a printout.

 

[Johnny Richards]

Johnny, thanks for confusing the issue. Now when someone asks me to do a trust me dive, I'll need to ask if they are using the Johnny Richards definition or the old definition.

Please note the second half of the title- "A Personal Opinion". I don't think there is a "Johnny Richards' definition" and my expression of my personal opinion should certainly not confuse the issue. Personal opinions, like many other things, are something that most of us have.

This is just something I thought about over a period of time when I heard the blanket condemnation of trust-me dives. Some are executed properly, others are not.

The only written definition of trust-me dives I have been able to find comes from the current NACD Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook as follows:

"...in which a diver leads another diver to an area unknown to the second diver with the second diver trusting the first diver for navigation, line awareness, etc. A diver should never relinquish personal responsibility for the managment of the tenets of accident analysis (guideline, gas, depth). The team leader's years of cave dive experience, familiarity with the system, apparent physical health and the personal relationship between the two divers are all factors to be considered before undertaking such a dive. Additionally, it is imperative that all customary practices be strictly adhered to and that a definite and comprehensive dive plan, with appropriate contingency and emergency procedures, is followed."

Johnny

 

[Stu101]

I offer these comments, NOT because I disagree with Johnny's distinction, but to further clarify what is, for me, the negative part of trust-me dives. I think that the essential thing that distinguishes a trust-me dive (or any of the variants Johnny describes) is personal responsibility. Each diver should believe he/she is responsible as opposed to expecting his more experienced buddy to make everything work out alright. This certainly refers to each diver's right to call a dive without recrimination, and also to each diver's ability to find their way out. But as simple as it is to say these things, I believe (for what it's worth), that each diver must maintain an attitude of self-reliance. It is so easy to become lazy and complacent and to stop paying attention without realizing it.

I completely agree that training dives are inescapably trust-me dives. I can't imagine how they could be anything else. However, despite the essential nature of training dives or guided dives with a more experienced diver, I also believe the less experienced diver must make it their job to be a good buddy, and to be actively involved and not just to follow the leader.

Stu

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I completely agree that training dives are inescapably trust-me dives. I can't imagine how they could be anything else.
Stu

During the classroom phase of all my cave classes I tell the peole in the class that we will not conduct "Trust-Me" dives. "Trust-Me" as defined in my post above.

The things that I tell students they can trust me for include the following: Depth of the dive, water temperature, general cave configuration , flow characteristics, general bottom composition, condition of the line(s), where the main line starts....I think you get the idea.

After I explain what they can trust me to do - I tell them what they should NOT :no trust me to do for them, or have anyone else do for them. I explain that they should never be in a position where they are relying upone me to show them the way out of the cave. They must independently verify & validate all jumps, exit markers and any other navigational aids available to them.

They are told that we will dive as a team, but we should be able to dive completely independent of one another in the event we become separated, or I become incapacitated back in the cave.

In summary I instruct them to be completely independent in terms of their ability to exit the cave under their own power.

I am sure we can mince words & play semantics here, but I also think we are all pretty much saying and agreeing on the same thing.

Jim

 

[Cacia]

Good points.

Too many black/white concepts around here.

Knowing who to trust and when it's smart is very important.

 

[rjack321]

I completely agree that training dives are inescapably trust-me dives.

I can only speak for myself, but none of my cave training dives were "blind trust me dives". We got a briefing which included depth, time, direction to the mainline, type of mainline, Ts, direction markers (esp when pointing the 'wrong way'), halocline depth and other pertinant info. The kinds of things a good guidebook would offer. After that we dove our dive.

I suppose if everything was going ****up then the instructor may have stepped in to remedy the situation. But 1) all of our problems were instructor initiated in the first place and 2) penetration was progressive and we weren't just dumped back somewhere where we weren't prepared to be.

 

[do it easy]

Thanks, now I don't feel so bad about doing that "discover advanced cave diving with trimix" dive.

 

[loosebits]

Please note the second half of the title- "A Personal Opinion". I don't think there is a "Johnny Richards' definition" and my expression of my personal opinion should certainly not confuse the issue. Personal opinions, like many other things, are something that most of us have.

This is just something I thought about over a period of time when I heard the blanket condemnation of trust-me dives. Some are executed properly, others are not.

The only written definition of trust-me dives I have been able to find comes from the current NACD Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook as follows:

"...in which a diver leads another diver to an area unknown to the second diver with the second diver trusting the first diver for navigation, line awareness, etc. A diver should never relinquish personal responsibility for the managment of the tenets of accident analysis (guideline, gas, depth). The team leader's years of cave dive experience, familiarity with the system, apparent physical health and the personal relationship between the two divers are all factors to be considered before undertaking such a dive. Additionally, it is imperative that all customary practices be strictly adhered to and that a definite and comprehensive dive plan, with appropriate contingency and emergency procedures, is followed."

Johnny

That was said in jest.

 

[Johnny Richards]

That was said in jest.

That's ok, I've had some time off and needed to exercise my fingers.....

Johnny

 

[grazie42]

I have to agree with others, training-dives aren´t necessarily trust-me dives. During Cave class the layout and what spots to "hit" were given by the instructor but the dive-plan was made by us, the student. He specifically told us not to trust him to get us out or keep us alive inside the cave, that is every divers responsibility...

Some of the early rec-courses were though...the deep-dive on AOW comes to mind...