Training agency throws Instructor under the bus while misleading the court

[flots am]

The answer to the problem is twofold: First, I have no issue with 8:2 for any class. But if you don't have the 2, you cannot positively maintain control of all students unless the ratio is 1:1. So, the agencies need to establish a requirement for a teaching assistant for any class size of more than 1.

That's actually what I meant above when I said more than 1:1. I can watch one person and be pretty good at not letting anything bad happen. More than one requires an extra person.

 

[Wookie]

That's actually what I meant above when I said more than 1:1. I can watch one person and be pretty good at not letting anything bad happen. More than one requires an extra person.

And I agree with you.

 

[markmud]

I believe that's gross negligence, not negligence. Negligence can be waived, and is. Gross negligence cannot, and is certainly exemplified by your example.

Hi Capt. Frank,

My lawyers have taught me to be careful with the term "gross negligence." They claim, for lay audiences, that gross negligence approaches criminal negligence. And, maybe that example (given by another poster on this thread) does approach criminal negligence--I don't know.

markm (IANAL)

 

[Tony387]

I believe that's gross negligence, not negligence. Negligence can be waived, and is. Gross negligence cannot, and is certainly exemplified by your example.

Actually, there are several cases in FL where exculpatory clauses have shielded defendants from liability, despite a finding of gross negligence.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[boulderjohn]

Hmmm, OK

When I did my crossover to PADI it was made quite clear at the time that we were not to exceed standards. I've read the letter you refer that came out and I got the impression that by exceed the standards they are discussing more water time and more repetition of skills, I did not get the impression we could add skills. If I was wrong, I need to look at it again. I am sure I am biased because when I did my crossover I felt the approach of do until they show you the skill good once and move on, and never exceed the standards was wrong quite frankly. But I needed the PADI instr rating working in the islands so...

So...in the context of a DSD what skills can I teach beyond those in the standards? Can I do it with Nitrox? CESA? Yes I am being a little silly, but honestly isn't that setting up the instructors to fail? (and this is not exactly limited to PADI BTW)

I know you are being facetious with your examples.

What I said is that the course standards does not mention everything you are going to have to teach them in the course. It does not mention how tight to make the mask strap--does that mean you can't tell them that? It doesn't tell you to teach them how to clear the regulator, but you have to teach that, don't you? It seems to me that the items they listed in this document that are not part of the course are common sense items like that.

As for going beyond the contents of the course, to give examples from the OW course, I teach gas management strategies. I show them how to use the reciprocal of the compass heading--a skill they are required to know--to navigate around an entire area around a boat--which they are not required to know. I give them more information about overhead environments. I can teach them all that, and they can appreciate it, but I can't make demonstrating proficiency in these items a requirement for passing the course.

On the other hand, they are required under the old standards to assist in planning their dives, and in the new standards they must plan a dive unassisted. Here in Colorado, that has to be done at altitude. If they are in some shore areas, tides must be considered. neither altitude nor tides are in the course content directly, but they have to consider it for planning the dives in the area in which they are being trained, which is a requirement.

 

[mathauck0814]

Hello Mathauck0814,

I think you should think in the macro verses micro plane of thought; there is a bigger problem that needs to be addressed. We as a nation desperately need TORT reform. Lets not make SCUBA diving a total pain-in-the-A and very expensive.

Boiling the ocean is a noble goal but one that is unlikely. I don't understand how SCUBA recerts are a pain in the A or very expensive. If your skills are up to date it should be fairly straight forward and you'd likely be able to tick all the boxes quite quickly. Given what I've experienced it would be incremental to the annual membership cost for an instructor to pay for a day of time from an IT. Certainly worthwhile to a) cull the herd of instructors and b) in doing so be able to earn a more professional wage on account of the reduced numbers.

I can't figure why you'd prefer that unqualified instructors be allowed to continue to teach under a reformed system. That sort of feels like the worst of all possible scenarios.

I'm not opposed to tort reform at all, but I fail to see how it addresses the quality or recency problems.

 

[mills705]

Unqualified instructor? Sure instructors vary in quality of their teaching but I feel unqualified is not a fair comment to make. Each person that has passed the IE through the PADI system and is a renewed member is allowed apart from insurance etc allowed to teach the PADI courses they are qualified to do so.
I think that the only thing that could make the instruction better is a tougher exam for instructors and based less on a sales pitch more emphasis on teaching!
Dont get me on resort instructors.... thats another story... PADI does quite poor in the aspect that although its an association of diving instructors they tend to not care about the actual instructor but the centres which give them money to be able to appear on websites etc!

In my opinion no one can be sure what happened that day in the lake apart from those that were there and witnessed it! No point guessing and double guessing an instructors thinking as im sure he is gutted about the loss.

 

[cerich]

Padi is not an association of diving into instructors...where on earth did you get that idea? Their name is misleading

 

[Wookie]

In my opinion no one can be sure what happened that day in the lake apart from those that were there and witnessed it! No point guessing and double guessing an instructors thinking as im sure he is gutted about the loss.

Actually, I see no one blaming the individual instructor except PADI and the parents. The parents because they have a lawyer whose job it is to blame everyone, and PADI because they are trying to protect themselves. Everyone who has been a resort instructor knows that you have "Aw Crap" moments and you hope and pray everyone survives it. This thread is not about blaming the instructor, it is about pointing the finger at PADI for dumping the instructor. You are the first person to bring up the instructor.

What is important to note is that PADI does not alledge a standards violation. PADI does not say that the instructor did anything wrong, and above all, PADI does not say that the standards for student control are inadequate. What PADI did was dump the instructor, settle with the parents, and sneak back into the lawsuit on the side of the parents, in a not too transparent attempt to maintain their standards as right. That's why this is wrong.

 

[cerich]

Exactly Frank. I understand Padi protecting themselves....but this is far beyond that

Actually, I see no one blaming the individual instructor except PADI and the parents. The parents because they have a lawyer whose job it is to blame everyone, and PADI because they are trying to protect themselves. Everyone who has been a resort instructor knows that you have "Aw Crap" moments and you hope and pray everyone survives it. This thread is not about blaming the instructor, it is about pointing the finger at PADI for dumping the instructor. You are the first person to bring up the instructor.

What is important to note is that PADI does not alledge a standards violation. PADI does not say that the instructor did anything wrong, and above all, PADI does not say that the standards for student control are inadequate. What PADI did was dump the instructor, settle with the parents, and sneak back into the lawsuit on the side of the parents, in a not too transparent attempt to maintain their standards as right. That's why this is wrong.