Training agency throws Instructor under the bus while misleading the court

[flots am]

As someone who has been through these agency comparison wars on ScubaBoard for a decade now, I find this latest portion of the discussion interesting.

One of the most common attacks on PADI and thus one of the reasons other agencies are usually praised is in exactly this area. PADI is criticized for being too specific in its standards. Other agencies are praised for allowing instructors to exercise more judgment about what to teach and how to teach it. Instructors, we are told, are wise enough to exercise good judgment in all such matters and should not be restrained by PADI's struct standards. Now we are seeing PADI criticized for allowing this level of judgment in their standards. It seems instructors are not wise enough to exercise this level of judgment.

This isn't agency specific. AFAIK, the agencies that have a "Discover SCUBA Diving" or similar program all allow more than 1:1.

It's also not actually a valid judgement call, since exercising judgement and deciding to take more than one at a time is guaranteed to cause a standards violation if you have to chase or rescue anybody.

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong if anybody has a specific answer of how to handle a situation like this without leaving anybody unattended on the bottom or on the surface or delaying rescue.

flots.

Edit: I've posed the same question in a number of different ways over a few days, and found no specific answers, so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

No answers are necessary, since I actually understand the impossibility of being in two places at once, as well as the difficulty/impossibility of safely "controlling" a truly panicked human underwater. I repeatedly brought up this point to get people to actually think about it.

I probably didn't change anybody's mind, but if it got anybody to think twice about "what could happen" it was certainly worth it.

Note yet again (because people keep bringing it up) THIS WAS NOT PADI BASHING It could happen with any DSD with more than 1:1.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It will probably be used when the apportionment of blame comes. I don't know if the kid had an asthma attack when the Scoutmaster and Instructor bolted for the surface. If the parents lied on the BSA medical forms then the defendant will be able to use that as a defense.

Here is BSA medical form for summer camp (parts A, B and C needed)

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-001_abc.pdf

Here is the additional form for SCUBA. I don't know if this is needed for DSD.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/padi.pdf

The RSTC form is required for anything I do in the water. Even the snorkeling/skin diving classes I teach. Not the PADI form of course but the generic one. In addition to that I have my own medical that must be filled out.
Why?
The RSTC form is outdated and not up on current medical issues. One glaring example is the concussion with loss of consciousness. We know that someone does not have to be completely out to suffer a concussion. I don't care if it was with loss of consciousness or not. If the participant has had a concussion of any kind I want to know about it.
Anything that MIGHT present a problem with scuba I want to know about. I added these items to my form with the blessing of my insurance carrier. It actually makes me a better risk by ID'ing some of these other issues that could come back to bite me later.

I mean seriously, a guy has a heart attack and everyone he was with gets sued? My buddy in the band days probably should have sued Toro or whoever made the mower. His dad who had zero history of heart trouble, did not smoke, was not overweight, rarely drank, and was about 55 yrs old had a massive coronary cutting the grass. Flat lawn, no hills, and had just started cutting. It was a hot day so maybe the sun should have been named as well as mother nature.

 

[tursiops]

The lake was flat "like glass" when the divers went in, with 20-30 foot of visibility. While they were underwater, the winds picked up unexpectedly and were blowing hard, creating 2-3 foot seas with whitecaps while they were underwater.

As a trained oceanographer, with decades of experience specializing in waves, this seems not only highly unlikely, but probably physically impossible. Waves take time to grow, and the wind must blow over the water for some distance, too. The longest fetch for Bear Lake is 30 km, even if the wind is N-S and the dive site was at one end. how long could they possibly ahve been underwater? 15 mins? 30 mins? Even if the wind suddenly went from zero to 30 knots, and blew over the entire length of the lake, waves would likely have gotten no bigger than a foot at most. Actually, for such a short duration of wind, the fetch is probably not important; even the 11 km width of the lake with an E-W wind would give the same result. It is the duration that is limiting the wave heights. In any case, estimating wave height while underwater is rather difficult to do. It all sounds kind of make-up.

 

[Omisson]

The RSTC form is required for anything I do in the water. Even the snorkeling/skin diving classes I teach. Not the PADI form of course but the generic one. In addition to that I have my own medical that must be filled out.
Why?
The RSTC form is outdated and not up on current medical issues. One glaring example is the concussion with loss of consciousness. We know that someone does not have to be completely out to suffer a concussion. I don't care if it was with loss of consciousness or not. If the participant has had a concussion of any kind I want to know about it.
Anything that MIGHT present a problem with scuba I want to know about. I added these items to my form with the blessing of my insurance carrier. It actually makes me a better risk by ID'ing some of these other issues that could come back to bite me later.

I mean seriously, a guy has a heart attack and everyone he was with gets sued? My buddy in the band days probably should have sued Toro or whoever made the mower. His dad who had zero history of heart trouble, did not smoke, was not overweight, rarely drank, and was about 55 yrs old had a massive coronary cutting the grass. Flat lawn, no hills, and had just started cutting. It was a hot day so maybe the sun should have been named as well as mother nature.

Just two bits of generic legal considerations.

1) If you start to add items not in an industry standardized form to have "your own" - you could become MORE liable for a non-included item issue -if it ever occurs. Why? Well once you have made an alteration and taken on the mantle of revising - presumably to improve your protection- it's now YOUR form that YOU drafted.... and therefore omissions will be held against you as a waiver.

I do wonder if that makes you a better or more likely, a worse risk for insurance?

2) I'm sure you ran your "revised form" by a lawyer- in addition to an insurance company - since you drafted a document who's sole purpose is really in the event of litigation.

But for everyone else- when creating documents that are intended to reduce liability or be used in the event of litigation it's wise to check with a local Attorbey because frequently such documents must conform to prescribed local patterns to be legally enforceable.

---------- Post added November 21st, 2014 at 06:06 PM ----------

As a trained oceanographer, with decades of experience specializing in waves, this seems not only highly unlikely, but probably physically impossible. Waves take time to grow, and the wind must blow over the water for some distance, too. The longest fetch for Bear Lake is 30 km, even if the wind is N-S and the dive site was at one end. how long could they possibly ahve been underwater? 15 mins? 30 mins? Even if the wind suddenly went from zero to 30 knots, and blew over the entire length of the lake, waves would likely have gotten no bigger than a foot at most. Actually, for such a short duration of wind, the fetch is probably not important; even the 11 km width of the lake with an E-W wind would give the same result. It is the duration that is limiting the wave heights. In any case, estimating wave height while underwater is rather difficult to do. It all sounds kind of make-up.

Thanks for posting this- I knew counsel was full of sh&& but wasn't sure how to go about proving it. I asked a local meteorologist but he said ask an oceanographer - who in turn said I'd need someone experienced with freshwater lakes and didn't know one.

 

[Wookie]

As a trained oceanographer, with decades of experience specializing in waves, this seems not only highly unlikely, but probably physically impossible. Waves take time to grow, and the wind must blow over the water for some distance, too. The longest fetch for Bear Lake is 30 km, even if the wind is N-S and the dive site was at one end. how long could they possibly ahve been underwater? 15 mins? 30 mins? Even if the wind suddenly went from zero to 30 knots, and blew over the entire length of the lake, waves would likely have gotten no bigger than a foot at most. Actually, for such a short duration of wind, the fetch is probably not important; even the 11 km width of the lake with an E-W wind would give the same result. It is the duration that is limiting the wave heights. In any case, estimating wave height while underwater is rather difficult to do. It all sounds kind of make-up.

Maybe it's different, but I have seen it go from 4's to 12's in the flower gardens in half an hour.

 

[tursiops]

Maybe it's different, but I have seen it go from 4's to 12's in the flower gardens in half an hour.

Yeah, it is a little different. Long fetch, but mostly it is the difference between starting with flat-calm versus starting with some waves.
It also depends on whether the larger waves were locally generated or propagated in from somewhere else. On a small lake, there is no someplace else.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

As a trained oceanographer, with decades of experience specializing in waves, this seems not only highly unlikely, but probably physically impossible. Waves take time to grow, and the wind must blow over the water for some distance, too. The longest fetch for Bear Lake is 30 km, even if the wind is N-S and the dive site was at one end. how long could they possibly ahve been underwater? 15 mins? 30 mins? Even if the wind suddenly went from zero to 30 knots, and blew over the entire length of the lake, waves would likely have gotten no bigger than a foot at most. Actually, for such a short duration of wind, the fetch is probably not important; even the 11 km width of the lake with an E-W wind would give the same result. It is the duration that is limiting the wave heights. In any case, estimating wave height while underwater is rather difficult to do. It all sounds kind of make-up.

30 knot winds for 30 minutes over a fetch of 30 km is 1 foot high waves??? I would like to see where you came up with that idea?

Wave height in feet

 

[Omisson]

30 knot winds for 30 minutes over a fetch of 30 km is 1 foot high waves??? I would like to see where you came up with that idea?

Wave height in feet

Because the wave we are discussing is in a restricted environment- an inland lake not the ocean.

Try:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a237420.pdf

---------- Post added November 22nd, 2014 at 12:59 AM ----------

Just to follow up the NOAA weather almanac says average winds July 13, 2011 were 4 mph but there were gust periods of 34 mph during the day and 54 at night but the average wind then was 18mph.

Also the 30 km is 16 nautical miles so no waves were created on average that day and without sustained winds above 15 mph.

So you would need the sustain data to show significant sustained periods -not minutes but hours-of gust to show wave action at 3 feet. Unless the DSD at 15 feet took an hour I'd say it was near impossible to get from 0-3 feet waves in under that...

 

[sea_ledford]

The RSTC form is required for anything I do in the water. Even the snorkeling/skin diving classes I teach. Not the PADI form of course but the generic one. In addition to that I have my own medical that must be filled out.
Why?
The RSTC form is outdated and not up on current medical issues. One glaring example is the concussion with loss of consciousness. We know that someone does not have to be completely out to suffer a concussion. I don't care if it was with loss of consciousness or not. If the participant has had a concussion of any kind I want to know about it.
Anything that MIGHT present a problem with scuba I want to know about. I added these items to my form with the blessing of my insurance carrier. It actually makes me a better risk by ID'ing some of these other issues that could come back to bite me later.

So what do you do with this additional information? If a potential student has had a concussion in the past and they mark "yes" to that item do they have to get a medical clearance, or is it just so you know about it? Is there a time frame? What are the contraindications of diving after a concussion? If you say they can't dive until they get a clearance, does that open you up to litigation for excluding participation based on a disability that isn't an industry standard?

I'm not trying to be an ass, btw, just curious.

I run an AAUS scientific diving program, so all my divers have to get medical clearance prior to any in-water work. However, I don't want to even see their test results, I just want the piece of paper that the MD signed saying they are cleared for diving. I have no training or authority to interpret results anyway. I do look at and keep the self-evaluation form though.

-Chris

 

[tursiops]

30 knot winds for 30 minutes over a fetch of 30 km is 1 foot high waves??? I would like to see where you came up with that idea?

Wave height in feet

This graph is for fully-developed seas, i.e. the wind has been blowing so long that the waves no longer grow. It says nothing about the first 30 minutes.

Here is an equivalent graph but including the duration-limitations. Enjoy figuring it out!
http://www.tugandosv.com/ahto/docs/wave_height_graph.pdf