Peter, I doubt you were diving doubles in a DSD. Apples and oranges IMO.
Training agency throws Instructor under the bus while misleading the court
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Peter's point has nothing to do with the level of the class. If you as an instructor have to go to the surface, there is nothing stopping you from taking other students with you. Why do so many people think that the instructor had no choice but to leave two uncertified children at the bottom of a murky lake when he went to the surface?
KevinNM
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So is OK if your actions directly kill him by causing an AGE when you drag him to the surface without any communication and he forgets that whole breathing bit in the excitement and confusion? Dragging the other untrained diver to the surface seems significantly more likely to cause an injury and FAR more likely to lead you to have many years to ponder your decision in a small room than your just chasing the other diver.
Obviously it is best not to end up having to make this choice, but both options appear to have a pretty obvious direct path to disaster.
Subfiend
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What if surface conditions had dramatically changed since you took the group underwater? What if you looked up to follow the bolter and you saw there were now 2-3 foot seas and white caps on the surface? Would you still make the choice to bring two uncertified children rapidly to the surface, where you would have to inflate their BCDs and ensure their safety, when you went to the assistance of the bolter? Why do so many people opine about what this instructor should or should not have done when they lack all of the facts of the case?
Come on Kevin. I don't think it would be wise to race the kids to the surface. Why would you do that?
---------- Post added November 20th, 2014 at 01:30 PM ----------
Come on Sub, you put a lot of what ifs into your stick to known facts stance. How did the lake suddenly get 2-3' whitecaps? We are discussing what has been reported about the case.
---------- Post added November 20th, 2014 at 01:30 PM ----------
Come on Sub, you put a lot of what ifs into your stick to known facts stance. How did the lake suddenly get 2-3' whitecaps? We are discussing what has been reported about the case.
John, I believe it, to some extent, does have to do with the level of the class. If you're diving doubles, I am assuming you know what "thumbs up" means, and will follow my lead. In a DSD setting, they may think I'm asking them if they're having a good time despite a well delivered predive intro to scuba and briefing. Regardless of how competent an instructor I am, I can't simultaneously physically take charge of 3 relatively clueless DSDs.
KevinNM
Contributor
How long are you planning on leaving the panicked diver on the surface by himself in this situation? A few minutes while you ensure the other diver(s) safely surfaces, inflates their BCD etc? Or are you zooming after him dragging the other diver(s) along? I'm pretty sure that option b is better fit for:
So no, I don't think that is a safe option for a group of untrained people. I don't think there is a good response to finding yourself in that position, so preventing this situation from occurring seems like the only good answer.
Can't we "what if" all day long? The fact remains that an instructor is not allowed to leave uncertified students or participants unsupervised underwater. Instructors need to attempt to follow the rules or quit. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like following the rules will always keep the instructor out of trouble as this thread clearly demonstrates.
I think most instructors who teach without assistants (at least the good ones) make a point of briefing the divers ahead of time about the need to immediately follow him/her to the surface if someone freaks and bolts to the surface. I'm going to have two this weekend and I guarantee they both will have it drilled into their heads several times before we ever get wet.
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I can agree with that!
Just curious though, do you not think there is anything between grabbing hands/racing to the surface in a frantic panic versus taking a few minutes, thinking what your best options are, measuring the distances with a marked line to confirm your assessment, signaling the DSDs to wait while you write on your slate "We have to surface now because the other diver already went up. Please stay right next to me and remember that you need to breathe continuously", then ascending at 9m/min up to your three minute safety stop....?
This was the case that caused us to rethink this: The instructor had 2 students for a deep dive. One of the students "short circuited" and without giving any visible warning signs he threw off his mask, rejected his regulator and started "ladder crawling" to the surface from 25 meters. (about 80ft I think)
The instructor tackled him, dealt with the emergency and in the process they started ascending (this student wasn't in a frame of mind to solve this problem under water). At this point his full attention was focused on making sure this student didn't drown. Once on the surface the instructor could free up some attention and suddenly thought .... FK! where's the other guy?
He could see bubbles so he parked the first diver on the surface and went back down, following the bubbles. He found the other diver at 5m doing his safety stop
At various points here he was juggling what he thought were a series of potentially life threatening events and in order to get it all under control he first left diver #2 on the bottom while dealing with diver #1's panic attack and then left diver #1 directly following a panic attack alone on the surface to go fetch diver #2.
My impression, Peter, is that this guy was a pretty good instructor (and no, it was not me). However you have to be lucky in that situation that the other student is clever enough to follow you and not just wait for you to come back. I know from personal experience that they don't always follow you to the surface and/or even understand that what just happened was real as opposed to being an exercise done for their benefit.
Hell.... when we saved that diver in Vinkeveen a few years ago, Police, Ambulances, the Fire department and a helicopter were arriving on the scene and some people *still* thought it might be an exercise. In some part of people's brains, there is a level of denial about these things. People often say that when they're in a real emergency it all seems surreal, like a dream. With everything we throw at them in a diving course, I can understand some students wondering what's going on at the best of times and when you add that psychological defense mechanism to the mix then reactions can be very unpredictable.
So.... no. My conclusion is that you can't rely on being lucky in order to keep control of two divers if you're up to your armpits dealing with an emergency. Someone else has to be there to take over leading the divers who are still in control of their dive.
In any event, if I have more than 1 student, I never go alone with them anymore outside of a swimming pool. Ever.
R..
---------- Post added November 20th, 2014 at 01:05 PM ----------
John, you know my ABC rule. I completely agree with you that in a case of a diver have certain problems (being uncomfortable, buoyancy problems, even free flows or a vast variety of things that are not immediately life threatening) that you can gain control (A) and get back to diving (B) and then tell the entire group to surface with you (C).
However, in a situation like I described above, where the issue is immediately life threatening, saving that life (A) and (B) are of paramount importance. You might not get to (C) before you are out of range (silt, visibility, an unexpected ascent) before you can gather the group. The worse your conditions, the more you need to account for the risk of having to delay (C).
In the case of the Blue Water accident (disclaimer: ALL I have to go on is what I read online) it would appear that the instructor had control before the ascent and made a conscious choice to "park" two students on the bottom while he dealt with a minor problem. This, if course, was not necessary, not allowed within standards, and given the results, pretty stupid. If this instructor had applied the ABC rule, this lapse of judgement could possibly have been avoided.
R..
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