Told My Jedi Master I'm Ready for 200' - need to start preparing

[Jax]

Whoa!

Okay, guys, I know this is the Advanced forum and people are a little more blunt and such here, but maybe let's look at this again?

Rec Diver WaveTrain has met up with this really cool Navy deep diver who has inspired him with stories of deep diving. WaveTrain thinks, "Hey, I'm ready to do this! I'm ready to take these steps and have this guy train me!" And, in his excitement, WaveTrain comes to the board and says . . .

He's been to 850' on rebreathers a few times and routinely does 400. I'm nowhere near that but I'm ready to shoot for 200 on open circuit.

I'm looking for a good deal on a drysuit. Wouldn't hurt to have a cold water reg. Any good quality off the shelf reg or something else? Aside from the obvious what are the details? Double tanks, what size? Two computers? Three computers? Seventeen computers? Bailout bottle? What else?

May we temper the condemnation of the excitement and instead explain the training and eventual [-]training[/-] equipment he'll need to dive deep?

 

[Doppler]

He's been to 850' on rebreathers a few times and routinely does 400. I'm nowhere near that but I'm ready to shoot for 200 on open circuit.

You can PM me if you wish... But some questions. And before anyone, including you, gets all defensive, these are the questions I ask of any potential student. Who knows, thinking about the answers may help you figure a few things out.

What is your current experience and what is it about that experience that informs you that you are ready to conduct a staged decompression dive with 60 metres of water over your head?

In particular, tell me about your pinnacle dive and also tell me about a dive that went very pear-shaped.

What did you learn from each?

Technical diving -- and a dive to 60 metres should be treated as technical, I am sure you'll agree -- is a balancing act. Achieving balance has a great deal to do with the diver's skills with risk management and her definition of personal limits. What are your personal limits?

Considering those limits and in the context of a staged decompression dive, please consider listing your Strengths and Weaknesses (internal limits) and the Opportunities and Threats (external influences) presented by the process of learning to "do tech dives." Write these down. They will change as you build your experience.

Technical diving is not about what sized cylinders you need (ones that fit is the answer to that but since you have not offered any indication of your height, build and weight, nobody who knows their ass from a hole in the ground should offer you anything more specific). Traditional North Florida Cave Diving Kit (doubles etc.) is only one option open to OC technical divers. Nor does it depend on how many computers you need (none is the answer by the way). Since you are diving OC, you will not need a bailout bottle -- that's for CCR and SCR divers -- you need decompression bottles... for a dive to 60 metres, you should consider taking two. BUT much more important than these details are what you need to do to plan and execute such a dive within the constructs of your personal comfort zone and experience. You have mentioned none of that in your posting and since I have not seen you in the water, no comment is required.

Get your ass into a class and perhaps, with luck, your instructor -- navy clearance diver or whatever -- will pass on some wisdom.

Good luck.

 

[waterpirate]

I think he got the good advice on pages 1-2. Then the conversation drifted to mentor vs. hero worship. I do not think anyone was pissing in his cherio's, just identifying a real problem that exists.
Eric

 

[Jax]

Hey, WaveTrain! :wavey:

FWIW, my education went this way: OW and Advanced. Then took Nitrox. Some cool dives. Got called up which put the kabosh on diving, and discovered ScubaBoard. (BTW, the PADI Nitrox I took was not a good course. I learned Nitrox by reading the TDI basic Nitrox manual.)

Learned about DIR, BP/W, long hoses, and tech diving. While interesting, it didn't interest me. I didn't want to go deep. Thought rescue diver was a good idea. Along with rescue, I got my CPR / 1st / Ox. Then, because I learned what a buddy should be, I went to Solo Class to take better care of myself . . . and made a better buddy of me. Solo diving, and what I read here, made me appreciate gas planning.

Then I found pictures of wrecks, and the things on them. (Who put those darned things at 160'?!?)

That led to Advanced Nitrox / Deco Procedures. My TDI instructor taught a great deal of it 'manually', which gave me a keen appreciation for what the various dive planners were computing. I also read Amazon.com: Deco for Divers (9781905492077): Mark Powell: Books, a super informative book! (Yes, I am a geek.)

However, to have enough gas for the AN/DP (above), I needed more than one tank. That led to me going to sidemount doubles. And having deco bottles.

I have only a few deco dives, and have yet to figure out what narcosis does to me. I suspect trimix is in my future... And maybe Extended Range Diver. And maybe cave.

 

[wavetrain75]

Thanks guys, think I found what I was looking for.

 

[DCBC]

Wavetrain75,

As I believe your question was sincere, I'd like to add a couple of things. I'm an ex-Navy Diver and a retired commercial diver whos spent most of his underwater time below 200'. As a recreational/technical instructor I've had to be carefull not to tell too many stories, as they can be easily misunderstood by a student. I suspect that your "Jedi Master" finds himself in the same situation.

Recreational diving is suppose to be fun. Many sports have a greater or lesser degree of risk to them. SCUBA Diving may also provide a span of risk. Each diver must select the amount of risk s/he is comfortable with and accept the consequenses. What one person is comfortable with, another may assess as too risky. There will be those who sky dive without a parachute and have someone give it to them on the way down. I don't however advocate such behaviour.

There is no doubt that when breathing compressed air, depth kills. Your instructor, like Thal, myself and others have routinely dived below 200' on compressed air, however the road there was a long one. Don't overextend your diving envelope; unless you're the type that jumps out of an airplane without a parachute. If so, I'll take another flight.

 

[TSandM]

I think it's great if you have some specific 200 foot dives that you want to do, to serve as a long-term goal and to help you shape your training and experience path. I fell in love with caves at about 50 dives, and plotted a three year path to getting cave trained, and it served me very well. Cave diving, like diving to 200 feet, is something deceptively simple when it goes well, and not simple at all (and potentially deadly) when it does not. The difference is that the cave constantly reminds you that you are doing something risky, whereas open water may not -- 150 feet doesn't feel very different from 100 (sometimes not at all!) and it's awfully easy to think that deep diving is just diving deeper.

The essence of 200 foot-type dives is that you are suddenly placed in a situation where you MUST solve problems where you are, because the alternative is untenable. To do deep dives like this, you have to have good equipment which gives you some insurance against the inevitable gear failures, and you MUST have the poise and composure to cope with those failures and implement the salvage strategies without putting yourself at any unnecessary risk. You have to be able to think at depth, and modify plans as the situation unfolds -- and execute an accurate, reasonable ascent and decompression, no matter what else has gone awry. In addition, you have to think about your support structure -- if you are diving from a boat, will the boat be there when you come up? Will they be able to assist if anything goes wrong? Is there chamber availability where you are, and if so, how far away is it, and what is the accessibility? 200 feet is a point where a lot of people start thinking about support divers, as well -- people who can bring more gas, or relieve the divers of excess equipment and make further decompression more comfortable.

I would very, very highly recommend you acquire and read Steve Lewis's book on the Six Skills. (He's Doppler above.) It's a very good reflection on the kinds of skills and knowledge one should have to do technical diving, and how the mindset of the technical diver is different from the average open water diver. You'll enjoy the book -- it's well written and in places quite hysterically funny, while still being very informative.

Good luck -- plan an intelligent route to the experience and training necessary to do the dives you're contemplating, and it will keep you busy and happy for some time!

 

[Jax]

Thanks guys, think I found what I was looking for.

Welcome back! :wavey:

How will you approach your training? Will you share your plan?

If you aren't sure about this forum, post it in the Basic Forum.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I think it's great if you have some specific 200 foot dives that you want to do, to serve as a long-term goal and to help you shape your training and experience path. I fell in love with caves at about 50 dives, and plotted a three year path to getting cave trained, and it served me very well. Cave diving, like diving to 200 feet, is something deceptively simple when it goes well, and not simple at all (and potentially deadly) when it does not. The difference is that the cave constantly reminds you that you are doing something risky, whereas open water may not -- 150 feet doesn't feel very different from 100 (sometimes not at all!) and it's awfully easy to think that deep diving is just diving deeper.

The essence of 200 foot-type dives is that you are suddenly placed in a situation where you MUST solve problems where you are, because the alternative is untenable. To do deep dives like this, you have to have good equipment which gives you some insurance against the inevitable gear failures, and you MUST have the poise and composure to cope with those failures and implement the salvage strategies without putting yourself at any unnecessary risk. You have to be able to think at depth, and modify plans as the situation unfolds -- and execute an accurate, reasonable ascent and decompression, no matter what else has gone awry. In addition, you have to think about your support structure -- if you are diving from a boat, will the boat be there when you come up? Will they be able to assist if anything goes wrong? Is there chamber availability where you are, and if so, how far away is it, and what is the accessibility? 200 feet is a point where a lot of people start thinking about support divers, as well -- people who can bring more gas, or relieve the divers of excess equipment and make further decompression more comfortable.

I would very, very highly recommend you acquire and read Steve Lewis's book on the Six Skills. (He's Doppler above.) It's a very good reflection on the kinds of skills and knowledge one should have to do technical diving, and how the mindset of the technical diver is different from the average open water diver. You'll enjoy the book -- it's well written and in places quite hysterically funny, while still being very informative.

Good luck -- plan an intelligent route to the experience and training necessary to do the dives you're contemplating, and it will keep you busy and happy for some time!

Don't like to nit pick or take things out of context TSM, but 150 feet does feel a LOT different than 100 feet to me (on air or nitrox, that is).

80-100 feet solo dive for me is generally relaxed and low stress. At around 150-160, the stress level definitely ticks up a lot for me, deco issues and having to actively remind yourself that you are impaired and need to try to be extra vigilant and to also second guess about every decision you make. The "time clock" also naturally makes everything more high stakes; even a small entanglement issue that delays you for 3 minutes at 150 feet can be a big deal.... all comes together to make a 150 foot dive have a very different "feel" than a 100 ft dive.

 

[TSandM]

DD, I wasn't saying that executing a well-planned and prepared 150 foot dive wasn't different from 100 feet. I was saying that the physical experience of being at 150 feet isn't different -- the water is still wet, and it's probably just as dark (or not, if you're in the Red Sea!), and you're still breathing in and out and managing your buoyancy just the same way. Of course, I would imagine that 150 feet on air could feel different from 100 feet, but since I've never been to 150 on air (and never will be) I can't comment about that. I feel very much the same at 150 on 21/35 as I do at about 90 feet on Nitrox.