CO2 build up during 65m (210 ft) dive.

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

CO2 is kind of insidious.
It creeps on you and when you are hit it is difficult to get out of it.
I will be forever grateful to my instructor when OC made me overexert and the only time I have got a CO2 hit was in traing and OC. It is bad, I was at 10 meters and overexerting with a twin set and three stages, I went up to the surface and rested breathing from nose and mouth. It took me 15-20 minutes and diving was over for the day.
Now that I know how it feels I know I have to prevent it. This is more true if I have a large deco obligation.
There are a couple of ways to get a CO2 hit: retention or lack of evacuation (my case above) or inspirating CO2 which was not scrubbed. Lets assume (and it is a big assumption) that gas density and dead space are ok and you do not overexert so you correctly ventilate out the produced CO2. Now it is up to the scrubber to fix the CO2 in the reaction bed to provide CO2 free gas.

I dive inspiration with a temp stick that works pretty well but the temp stick only shows the depth of the reaction front. I also have a CO2 sensor. I had a couple of occasions where the CO2 detector alarmed and the temp stick was OK (beginning of dive with fresh scrubber). I could not understand why but it was my fault (if you want to read about it it is in the near miss forum Three strikes and you are out - A rebreather tale). Scrubber break through can happen because there is too much CO2 exceeding the scrubber capability to fix it ot if there is a (full or partial) bypass of the reacting chemicals.

This can happen because of incorrect assembly or failure (of flap valves mostly).
In case of my reb, the oring sealing between the sorb container and the canister needs to be greased and correctly seated otherwise there might be bypass and some gas would not go through the sorb. In such case the CO2 monitor would alarm.
Also if one of the flap valves stays open there could be pendolar flow and you would rebreath gas that has not been through the sorb. In such case I very much doubt the CO2 sensor would alarm.

While the APD temp stick has been working for ages and it is quite reliable, the CO2 detector had been plagued by some issues initially (mostly false alarms). Now it also appears to be quite reliable. Also after a couple of alarm that I believed could be false, I discovered that might have been true, so maybe the reported false alarms might have been true after all.

Bottom line: the monitoring devices, although imperfect, add an additional layer of safety in the nasty business that a CO2 hit is.
We need to be aware of the failure modes and the limits of our life sustaining machines and stay away from them (limits not machines :wink:)
Saving money on sorb or safety devices it is not wise. We need to use an aeronautical approach to safety. Adhere to limits and respect them.
 
- Scrubber: Already used for about 130' on a dive the day before.
I would suggest never starting a dive this big (i.e. deep and long with hard work) on anything but a new fresh scrubber. That's also the advice I've heard from every RB instructor I know and in most of the RB diving manuals I've ever seen. I'd be very surprised if GUE sanctioned the use of a scrubber that had already been used to 65 meters for 130 of its rated 200 minutes to start a dive to 65 meters that's planned to last another 175 minutes. Their rules are usually much more conservative than that.
- It absolutely was NOT a pleasant feeling for a couple of minutes. You can trust me on that one! It felt like breathing in a plastic bag.
Well, yeah, you were breathing into a plastic bag the whole time you were on the rebreather... LOL (this is the mid-post comic relief section) But seriously, I understand what you mean and it does sound like you overbreathed the already well-used scrubber while performing some semi-strenuous work, but the scrubber was able to catch up after you rested and slowed the flow rate through the scrubber by consciously slowing your breathing. I probably would have bailed out briefly for that and then got back on the loop in a few minutes after everything had stabilized.
- Scrubber time: This is a thing! The scrubber is CE rated to 200 minutes. I've had already done 130' on it the previous day during a similar dive. So maybe I was cutting it too close on scubber time.
Yes, you definitely cut it way too close. I would use that used scrubber again on a 3 hour shallow drift, but not on the 3 hour deep working dive you had planned. My RB takes ExtendAir cartridges, so it would be easy for me to pop out the used cartridge, do this big dive on a new one, and then use the old one again for something light and shallow later (and same with the second one). But even with your JJ, which you have to discard the old sorb and repack, is it really worth the $20 savings to try to squeeze a second big dive out of the old sorb and then have these kind of problems?
 
A notion that I find convenient is that any scrubber will scrub "100%" of your CO2 up to a certain threshold (or rate), but "0%" of everything over that--though it's probably a more curvy math & transition.

For a partially used scrubber that threshold is presumably lower, but still above the basal metabolic rate. That explains why many of these large scrubbers can work up to 6+ hours, even in cold water, for a relaxed diver encountering no exertion.
Yeah, it's not digital, like all or nothing, but it is closer to that than a smooth curve. The study I saw shows the % CO2 that gets past the scrubber is very flat until the point where breakthrough first starts, then it goes up very rapidly after that. So once the symptoms start it is a very short time until the CO2 levels get up to where real harm begins. The study also showed a phenomenon like what the OP describes, where under high load on a scrubber already near the edge the CO2 level rises, but can come back in range if the circulation rate in the loop is slowed (allowing more dwell time of gas in the scrubber), but eventually breakthrough will occur at this lower rate as well. I'm too lazy to go look for the link right now, but it was somewhere here on SB where I saw it.
 
The information I'm about to present may be potentially unrelated to this incident.... but maybe there's something to it and so I figured I'd post.

I just heard something interesting in an interview that @Pod Diver Radio did with Lamar Hires:

At around the 11-minute mark there's a conversation about a packable scrubber vs. the EAC. Here's the specific quote:
"granular scrubber is basically one and done [...] you can't really store it put together, because it'll start to clump and create channeling, where that can't happen with a cartridge"

Most CCRs use sorb, not EAC, yet I oftentimes read about and talk to CCR divers reusing their scrubbers. This seems to be a norm, even outside of the rEvo, where the dual scrubber config is built for it. What are people's thoughts?
 
The information I'm about to present may be potentially unrelated to this incident.... but maybe there's something to it and so I figured I'd post.

I just heard something interesting in an interview that @Pod Diver Radio did with Lamar Hires:

At around the 11-minute mark there's a conversation about a packable scrubber vs. the EAC. Here's the specific quote:
"granular scrubber is basically one and done [...] you can't really store it put together, because it'll start to clump and create channeling, where that can't happen with a cartridge"

Most CCRs use sorb, not EAC, yet I oftentimes read about and talk to CCR divers reusing their scrubbers. This seems to be a norm, even outside of the rEvo, where the dual scrubber config is built for it. What are people's thoughts?
 
The information I'm about to present may be potentially unrelated to this incident.... but maybe there's something to it and so I figured I'd post.

I just heard something interesting in an interview that @Pod Diver Radio did with Lamar Hires:

At around the 11-minute mark there's a conversation about a packable scrubber vs. the EAC. Here's the specific quote:
"granular scrubber is basically one and done [...] you can't really store it put together, because it'll start to clump and create channeling, where that can't happen with a cartridge"

Most CCRs use sorb, not EAC, yet I oftentimes read about and talk to CCR divers reusing their scrubbers. This seems to be a norm, even outside of the rEvo, where the dual scrubber config is built for it. What are people's thoughts?
I regularly reuse scrubber.
There has been a study published and presented at EuroTek 2016 (@Dr Simon Mitchell and all) showing how a air sealed scrubber in a month time has little f no degradation in CO2 absoption.
I do not have the link available. It was widely disseminated. Next day use is not even a problem for a scrubber left exposed to environmental air.
This said there is the issue of the partially used scrubber and its remaining efficacy.
In case of an inspiration:
the initial 100 minutes can be used below 50 meters
additional 40 minutes can be used below 20 but above 50 meters
and the final 40 minutes of scrubber time are only good at 20 meters and shallower.
Hence you can reuse a scrubber but if you put 140 minutes on it during the first dive the second has to be 20 or shallower.
This is why a deep dive has to start with a fresh scrubber.
 

Excellent, this matches what I've heard from other divers in the real world. Thanks for the link! Why did Lamar say what he did, then?

In regards to the paper, maybe @Dr Simon Mitchell can respond, but the paper states "rebreather was mechanically ventilated in a benchtop circuit." Does this benchtop circuit account for "lung butter" and other bio-goo or high levels of moisture/condensation?
 
Have used a partially used scrubber canister that has been stored in sealed container for as long as six months without issue. There is an element of sorb regeneration that is stored partially used.
 
Excellent, this matches what I've heard from other divers in the real world. Thanks for the link! Why did Lamar say what he did, then?

In regards to the paper, maybe @Dr Simon Mitchell can respond, but the paper states "rebreather was mechanically ventilated in a benchtop circuit." Does this benchtop circuit account for "lung butter" and other bio-goo or high levels of moisture/condensation?
I saw the video of the testing circuit.
Moisture heat and co2 where added to simulate respiration but, if I recall correctly no bio goo. Also consider that those should be trapped by the expiration counter lung and not end up in the canister.
 

Back
Top Bottom