To tell or not to tell?
- Thread starter Gilligan
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Genesis:
Genesis- I was referring to YOUR insurance carriers should you hurt yourself, and have to spend a fortune on medical bills. I am well aware that as long as you have signed I should be covered. Thanks for the arm-waving comment.
I have had enough. Obviously everybody thinks it's ok not to disclose any medical conditions, in order to further their own diving agenda. I am not some stupid outback colonial, with safety being my main concern. Keep signing your waivers as filled in truthfully and may the force be with you all.
My insurance company doesn't care what I tell you - they care what I tell them. Stateside, insurance companies don't get to review your individual history and make decisions as to whether they will allow you to participate in a specific activity - their decision making power ends with a yes/no decision on underwriting you and a yes/no decision for everyone regarding an activity. It may not even extend that far, if you belong to a group. In my instance, scuba isn't a prohibited activity - even if I'm an athsmatic diabetic with a history of barotrauma.
Precisely. I'm not advocating abandoning any consideration of health issues and those who need to know will be told. You, as the charter operator, have an insurance mandated need to protect yourself, which you accomplish by collecting exclusionary medical statements. I'm very comfortable, however, reserving dive decisions for myself and telling most everyone else to MYOB.
Hey - those of us stateside were colonials, too! I didn't see where anyone was calling you names, even if a number of us were directly and repeatedly challenging many of your positions. I hear your passion, but I think you should consider that others may be just as passionate about the same subject. Personally, I don't think there is a resolution to this issue: you've decided that you want the authority to make medical decisions for me and that you should have it. I've decided that I don't want you making these decisions for me. Maybe we should simply agree to disagree and move on to the next topic...
Reefraff: I agree 100%. I beleive privacy and freedom of choice are basic in every field but specially in health related topics. I´m sorry for the businessmen. Soon the insurance companies will ask for your genetic profile so they´ll know your chances to develop diabetes, cancer, etc...
miguel sanz:
They are already buying the data from your local grocery stores, both the small and large ones, and attempting to link it to your identity (e.g. through your credit card) in order to get information they otherwise could not have.
Indeed, they've been at this since at least 1994, which was when I first became aware of an active attempt to buy this information from the grocery industry (through an employer I had at the time.)
ArcticDiver
Contributor
As a newbie to this Board I've read this thread with great interest. But it leaves me with a couple questions that I don't think have been explicitly addressed.
1. The folks representing the dive boat seem to be concerned about being sued if something goes wrong while the diver is doing business with them. How can they be sued? Just about every waiver I've seen, and signed, absolves the boat, crew, owner, and the passerbys on shore from liability from everything. The absolution includes things like negligence, gross negligence, wilful conduct, etc. So, if I sign a waiver like this, and I and lots of others have, how in the world can I then successfully sue anyone?
2. Is my recollection correct that in most of the USA anyway that if a person after a waiver of liability is signed in their favor then participates in the actiivity then the waiver is compromised? So, if a Dive Boat requires a complete waiver like I've described and then participates in the diver's decision making isn't the waiver compromised? So, a dive captain/dive master/etc. would be better off just letting the diver do their own thing once the waiver of liability is signed?
3. The question has been asked, but not anwered, about just who is a Dive Doctor? Would an Internal Medicine Doc who is a rated Flight Surgeon and a diver qualify?
4. Last, just why should I disclose my personal medical condition to anyone? Especially since I've signed away my right to sue the boat folks. The EMS folks can do just fine for the 5 min - 2 hours they are going to have me. The hospital can check with my emergency contact to get far more detailed and in-context info than I could ever carry.
Sorry for being so long.
1. The folks representing the dive boat seem to be concerned about being sued if something goes wrong while the diver is doing business with them. How can they be sued? Just about every waiver I've seen, and signed, absolves the boat, crew, owner, and the passerbys on shore from liability from everything. The absolution includes things like negligence, gross negligence, wilful conduct, etc. So, if I sign a waiver like this, and I and lots of others have, how in the world can I then successfully sue anyone?
2. Is my recollection correct that in most of the USA anyway that if a person after a waiver of liability is signed in their favor then participates in the actiivity then the waiver is compromised? So, if a Dive Boat requires a complete waiver like I've described and then participates in the diver's decision making isn't the waiver compromised? So, a dive captain/dive master/etc. would be better off just letting the diver do their own thing once the waiver of liability is signed?
3. The question has been asked, but not anwered, about just who is a Dive Doctor? Would an Internal Medicine Doc who is a rated Flight Surgeon and a diver qualify?
4. Last, just why should I disclose my personal medical condition to anyone? Especially since I've signed away my right to sue the boat folks. The EMS folks can do just fine for the 5 min - 2 hours they are going to have me. The hospital can check with my emergency contact to get far more detailed and in-context info than I could ever carry.
Sorry for being so long.
OK guys, for pete's sake stop flogging a dead horse. I am well aware that as soon as you have signed a waiver, I and whoever I am working for cannot be sued. What I have said over and over is that if you do not disclose that you have a preexisting condition or are on medication, and sign your waiver saying you have answered all questions truthfully YOUR insurance may not cover YOU if something happens related to your illness or medication while diving.
Let's take diver Fred. A typical waiver here in Australia will ask
"Are you currently taking any prescription medication? Fred is but by God his doctor has told him it's fine so he's not going to disclose it and answers "No"
Next question "Do you suffer from any medical conditions including but not limited to: High blood pressure, asthma, had chest surgery etc, etc" Fred has, but by God, Fred's doctor has told him he's fine, so he answers "No"
Last thing on the waiver." I (insert Fred) have answered all of the above truthfully"
"Witnessed by (insert Mrs Fred)" Fred hasn't answerd truthfully, but as you all tell me, we don't need to know that.
So Fred goes diving. Fred suffers a medical problem underwater related to his condition or medication and has to be medivacced off and hospitalised (or dies).
His holiday is ruined, as is everybody else's on board the boat. Fred or Fred's widow tries to claim medical or travel insurance, so all the waivers get looked at. Hmmm, Fred had "whatever" or was on "whatever" but signed the waiver as saying truthfully he didn't. Now if you really think Fred's insurance will cover his costs now, you must be living in Dreamland.
A hypothetical, yes, but one which we see a lot out here.
(1)We are well aware that we cannot be sued once you have signed the waiver
(2)Arctic Diver, we have not compromised the waiver as you have deliberately hidden something from us, so it is You who have compromised it
(3)Our dive doctors have not done the required training to be flight surgeons. Has the flight surgeon in question done the hyperbaric medicine courses to qualify as a dive doctor?
(4)Disclosing a medical condition DOES NOT automatically disqualify you from diving. The dive doctor we call will tell us whether to let you dive or not, and depending what you have or are on will in all likelihood let you.
You are going to look pretty bloody silly if we have to give you a painkiller for a jellyfish sting (very common and very potentially fatal) and you haven't bothered to tell us you are allergic to something we or the paramedics administer because by God we don't need to know.
Let's take diver Fred. A typical waiver here in Australia will ask
"Are you currently taking any prescription medication? Fred is but by God his doctor has told him it's fine so he's not going to disclose it and answers "No"
Next question "Do you suffer from any medical conditions including but not limited to: High blood pressure, asthma, had chest surgery etc, etc" Fred has, but by God, Fred's doctor has told him he's fine, so he answers "No"
Last thing on the waiver." I (insert Fred) have answered all of the above truthfully"
"Witnessed by (insert Mrs Fred)" Fred hasn't answerd truthfully, but as you all tell me, we don't need to know that.
So Fred goes diving. Fred suffers a medical problem underwater related to his condition or medication and has to be medivacced off and hospitalised (or dies).
His holiday is ruined, as is everybody else's on board the boat. Fred or Fred's widow tries to claim medical or travel insurance, so all the waivers get looked at. Hmmm, Fred had "whatever" or was on "whatever" but signed the waiver as saying truthfully he didn't. Now if you really think Fred's insurance will cover his costs now, you must be living in Dreamland.
A hypothetical, yes, but one which we see a lot out here.
(1)We are well aware that we cannot be sued once you have signed the waiver
(2)Arctic Diver, we have not compromised the waiver as you have deliberately hidden something from us, so it is You who have compromised it
(3)Our dive doctors have not done the required training to be flight surgeons. Has the flight surgeon in question done the hyperbaric medicine courses to qualify as a dive doctor?
(4)Disclosing a medical condition DOES NOT automatically disqualify you from diving. The dive doctor we call will tell us whether to let you dive or not, and depending what you have or are on will in all likelihood let you.
You are going to look pretty bloody silly if we have to give you a painkiller for a jellyfish sting (very common and very potentially fatal) and you haven't bothered to tell us you are allergic to something we or the paramedics administer because by God we don't need to know.
Hey, if posting to this thread is "flogging a dead horse," what are you doing here? You are correct, however, we probably can't resolve this issue to our mutual satisfaction, but as long as we're both here with nothing better to do...
One of the nice things about living in Dreamland is that my insurance company will definitely pay my medical bills, even if I've lied to you. Sorry if yours won't. Thank you for your concern, however the issue is not your affair, so please don't worry yourself. You might be correct about the trip insurance not paying in your hypothetical situation, but again, it's none of your business.
I think that everyone here would agree that there are some medical conditions that make diving unacceptably dangerous. Although exactly what (and how severe) those conditions are is subject to debate, I think we would all agree that some divers ignore those risks and get in the water when they shouldn't. The question is what responsibility and right does a charter operator have to involve themselves in that decision and to what extent.
Clearly you have a duty of care to your customers to inform them of the risks associated with diving. It's understandable that you would want to document that you have done so and forgiveable that you do so by obtaining a signed statement that they are aware of a specific list of contra-indications. The line between being pro-active and intrusive is crossed when you begin requiring dock-side evaluations.
An important undercurrent to this conversation is the fact that you haven't answered repeated questions about what the qualifications for a "diving" doctor are and what standards he should apply. Your boat, your rules, but don't expect me to respect them if you don't make them clear long in advance and if the process isn't transparent, consistent and done with respect for my rights to privacy and independence. You'll get no better than you give.
Just for grins, I'd be interested in seeing if your doctor would clear the following hypothetical 50 year old male diver:
Each of these conditions is a check-off on the RSTC Medical Statement and would seemingly prompt a call to your doctor. Which brings up an interesting question - are you using the RSTC Medical Statement as part of your waiver or the more simple PADI (or other Agency) Liability Release?
One of the nice things about living in Dreamland is that my insurance company will definitely pay my medical bills, even if I've lied to you. Sorry if yours won't. Thank you for your concern, however the issue is not your affair, so please don't worry yourself. You might be correct about the trip insurance not paying in your hypothetical situation, but again, it's none of your business.
I think that everyone here would agree that there are some medical conditions that make diving unacceptably dangerous. Although exactly what (and how severe) those conditions are is subject to debate, I think we would all agree that some divers ignore those risks and get in the water when they shouldn't. The question is what responsibility and right does a charter operator have to involve themselves in that decision and to what extent.
Clearly you have a duty of care to your customers to inform them of the risks associated with diving. It's understandable that you would want to document that you have done so and forgiveable that you do so by obtaining a signed statement that they are aware of a specific list of contra-indications. The line between being pro-active and intrusive is crossed when you begin requiring dock-side evaluations.
An important undercurrent to this conversation is the fact that you haven't answered repeated questions about what the qualifications for a "diving" doctor are and what standards he should apply. Your boat, your rules, but don't expect me to respect them if you don't make them clear long in advance and if the process isn't transparent, consistent and done with respect for my rights to privacy and independence. You'll get no better than you give.
Just for grins, I'd be interested in seeing if your doctor would clear the following hypothetical 50 year old male diver:
- Borderline hypertension (BP 140/85) that is being treated (lisinopril 20mg) successfully (BP 120/80).
- Familial history of stroke (father, age 72).
- History of back trauma that resulted in surgical repair (double laminectomy) of the lower lumbar region more than ten years ago. No complaints since and no restrictions other than caution when lifting heavy objects.
- A possible mild episode of skin bends resulting from cold-water decompression diving in a flooded drysuit about 5 years ago, treatment was not sought and there is no official diagnosis.
Each of these conditions is a check-off on the RSTC Medical Statement and would seemingly prompt a call to your doctor. Which brings up an interesting question - are you using the RSTC Medical Statement as part of your waiver or the more simple PADI (or other Agency) Liability Release?
I dare say the dive doctor we use would say no. However, as I am at my real job at the moment (sat diver on an oil platform) and will not be back instructing for another fortnight, I can't even ask him. However, I did ask our medical technician (who is hyperbaric qualified) and he told me without any more detail probably not. The waivers here in OZ are not an agency waiver, but more of a generic assumption of risk/ medical questionnaire Either way, agreeing to disagree might be the best option as we're all getting a bit repetitive. It's certainly given a lot of people (including the rest of my dive spread) a lot to bat around.
The end-Regards to all.
The end-Regards to all.
Similar threads
