To tell or not to tell?

[wettek]

Gidday Steve
There certainly has been some debate back and forth, but I am glad you can see my point of view. What I meant about the waivers was probably aimed more at the more gung-ho types you see everywhere who insist on diving even though they still have an illness or injury. We all have seen people obviously suffering a flu or heavy cold insist on diving, only to abort at 10 feet! It was probably more applicable to the Discover Scuba type experiences, where for example someone who has asthma and uses an inhaler on a constant basis, still insists they are able to dive, because their Pa Kettle GP says it's controlled. Diving does involve some physical activity as we all know! Anyway, enough stirring. Regards to all.

 

[Walter]

First of all, I'm not Steve. Secondly, I still don't see how you've answered my question. I understand how signing a waiver stating I won't sue you even if you do something stupid that hurts or kills me benefits you. I don't understand how signing that document bebefits me.

Yes, I understand why being truthful on medical questionnaires is important. This serves to inform people of conditions they may have that should or could prevent them from diving. It can save lives. It can limit your liability. I would never encourage anyone to lie on a medical questionnaire.

OTOH, I can understand why someone would hesitate to disclose information if they've had their condition cleared by a physician who is a diving specialist. I understand that most doctors know little to nothing about diving and that most divers don't see diving specialists.

Luckily I have no conditions that would tempt me to lie on your questionnaire.

 

[rcohn]

I'll just point out that medical standards on what conditions are safe to dive with vary in different parts of the world. In the USA, divers with asthma can be cleared to dive, see the YMCA protocol. The British previously had more liberal standards than the USA not sure about today. Do the Australian diving docs follow the same standards, or are the Australian standards more stringent (is asthma still an absolute contraindication)?

Lack of uniform standards, lack of uniformly accepted medical certification, and complete lack of medical background of dive professionals making judgments is why many choose not to disclose conditions their physicians have certified as safe. It also the reason I’m avoiding a dive trip to Australia.

Ralph

 

[fins wake]

As I stated which everybody seems to be forgetting, we do not make the calls ourselves. We had a fatality on board some months ago which the autopsy revealed was due to a pre-existing heart condition which the woman did not disclose. As a result, the 3 day trip was cut short, resulting in 24 very pissed off and upset divers-(also paying customers as everybody keeps repeating). This is very common here, we have even had people with major heart surgery being told not to disclose it, as we will can them. Fair go guys. I had an advanced student pass out on me at 30m on her deep dive, leaving me with un unconscious diver and 5 other near-to-panic students. She later confessed to a doctor she had not disclosed at her dive medical that she had a medical condition that caused dizzy spells and fainting as her GP had told her her meds kept it under control.

Almost identical points were made earlier on by some other dive instructors in this very thread with similar experiences to yours.

I think to most of us there are several sides to the issue. Personally I understand your point. Then again, of course, I do understand that a diver who's been cleared - in confidence - by his or her personal physician doesn't want to be second-guessed by a dive instructor, so I do understand CuriousMe too. It's a bit of a grey area, with several good points to be made by all.

I certainly wouldn't avoid a trip to Australia for this (or any other) reason. :57:

 

[wettek]

I'll just point out that medical standards on what conditions are safe to dive with vary in different parts of the world. In the USA, divers with asthma can be cleared to dive, see the YMCA protocol. The British previously had more liberal standards than the USA not sure about today. Do the Australian diving docs follow the same standards, or are the Australian standards more stringent (is asthma still an absolute contraindication)?

Lack of uniform standards, lack of uniformly accepted medical certification, and complete lack of medical background of dive professionals making judgments is why many choose not to disclose conditions their physicians have certified as safe. It also the reason I’m avoiding a dive trip to Australia.

Ralph

Gidday Ralph
Yes, asthma is still a swear word in Australian diving, and I do agree that there is a lack of uniform standards world-wide. This however is the case for a lot of things worldwide, such as the legal drinking age, which is even different in different states of a country, so I find it disappointing that so many people are criticising our dive industry for having strict standards. I would appreciate it if everybody would read what I have stated over and over again that it is not the dive professional making the call, but doctors who have completed hyperbaric medicine qualifications. I just want divers to go home healthy and happy. At the end of the day though, it is entirely up to the individual to disclose what they want, and accept without trying to blame somebody else, the consequences of any related incident.

 

[CuriousMe]

Wettek,

I promise, I have read what you've written and I understand that it's a dive doc and not a divemaster making the call in your part of the world. But my question to you is still....why should I take your dive doc's opinion (who hasn't met me and only knows the barest of facts about me) over my dive doc's opinion (who knows my medical history and has examined me)?

Peace,
Cathie

 

[wettek]

First of all, I'm not Steve. Secondly, I still don't see how you've answered my question. I understand how signing a waiver stating I won't sue you even if you do something stupid that hurts or kills me benefits you. I don't understand how signing that document bebefits me.

Yes, I understand why being truthful on medical questionnaires is important. This serves to inform people of conditions they may have that should or could prevent them from diving. It can save lives. It can limit your liability. I would never encourage anyone to lie on a medical questionnaire.

OTOH, I can understand why someone would hesitate to disclose information if they've had their condition cleared by a physician who is a diving specialist. I understand that most doctors know little to nothing about diving and that most divers don't see diving specialists.

Luckily I have no conditions that would tempt me to lie on your questionnaire.

Sorry about that Walter.
The waiver form basically does not stop you from sueing me if I am negligent or just plain stupid. It stops you sueing me if you have not answered any of the questions truthfully-ie medicals-or if you do something stupid or negligent. At the bottom of most waivers it says something along the lines of "I ------- have answered all above questions truthfully etc, etc" Should something happen as a result of a non-disclosed medical condition, I am sure your medical and travel insurers would probably hang you out to dry. They also help protect you, as we will not let you dive if our dive doctor is of the opinion that your condition or med is not safe to dive with. I am sorry if this does not agree with the divers own doctors medical opinion, but as we have stated, standards are grossly different the world over. As the airlines say, "Your safety is our priority." Gotta run.

 

[wettek]

Sorry about that Walter.
The waiver form basically does not stop you from sueing me if I am negligent or just plain stupid. It stops you sueing me if you have not answered any of the questions truthfully-ie medicals-or if you do something stupid or negligent. At the bottom of most waivers it says something along the lines of "I ------- have answered all above questions truthfully etc, etc" Should something happen as a result of a non-disclosed medical condition, I am sure your medical and travel insurers would probably hang you out to dry. They also help protect you, as we will not let you dive if our dive doctor is of the opinion that your condition or med is not safe to dive with. I am sorry if this does not agree with the divers own doctors medical opinion, but as we have stated, standards are grossly different the world over. As the airlines say, "Your safety is our priority." Gotta run.

By the way, if you haven't already read it, have a look at the topic on the site about ADHD meds and diving. It ties in pretty well with the debate back and forth here with diving doctors not agreeing. Regards to all.

 

[scubasean]

At the bottom of most waivers it says something along the lines of "I ------- have answered all above questions truthfully etc, etc" Should something happen as a result of a non-disclosed medical condition, I am sure your medical and travel insurers would probably hang you out to dry.

What does you signing the waiver have to do with whether your insurance will pay off??....They aren't insuring against whether you take me on a dive, but rather are insuring whether I die doing something, and deciding whether that something is prohibited.

 

[wettek]

What does you signing the waiver have to do with whether your insurance will pay off??....They aren't insuring against whether you take me on a dive, but rather are insuring whether I die doing something, and deciding whether that something is prohibited.

I am by no means an insurance expert, but I would have thought if you as a paying customer sign a waiver saying you have answered all the questions truthfully, and an incident should occur due to you not disclosing something that it has asked, the insurance company would take the position that you have hidden a condition and not pay up. The paying passenger signs the waiver, not me.