Tipping - how much and are we cheap

[RICoder]

Egad, if it keeps going like this I'm going to go all the way over to Chilly's side .

Meritocracy has its intellectual and social value. You shouldn't get a tip because you're going to be an a-hole if you don't, just like you shouldn't get an A in school because you're going to sue if you don't. You either earned it or you didn't...but it's not a "gimme".

Culturally speaking, like Chilly was doing, I'm kinda sick of a growing American cultural concept of entitlement, and I'll tend to do the opposite of what is believed to be such just to make the point.

 

[AlexMDiver]

EXACTLY MY POINT: Tilting at windmills, ranting about janitors and stockboys is mumbo jumbo. What does that have to do with fairly tipping people who deserve tips in our economic system?

Please specify why "our" economic system makes DMs deserve to get tipped and why you think that big tipping helps the economic system that makes DMs deserve getting tipped in the first place.
What makes tipping fair. In the dive shop, when you sign on to a trip. Does it say "service charge not included"? If yes, then tipping is fair. If not, then why should not tipping be unfair?

 

[vondo]

Hmmm... so as long as someone expects a tip, then you should give one, eh?

It's odd, because in the last 10 years, it seems the number of people expecting tips as risen dramatically. I think it's sad that we tip some people and not others. I'm still up for not tipping anyone and letting the employer deal with proper wages and quality control.

I bet everyone at your local grocer doesn't make a huge wage (cashier, stock boys, etc.), yet I bet you don't tip them. If you hit your local mall, I bet most of those people make very low money, but they don't get tipped. Oh yeah, and the janitors of most buildings do a very important service, but don't get tipped. But, I guess they don't "expect" it yet, mostly due to social expectations, so we can ignore them, right?

Oh yeah, but those poor DMs who chose a profession that everybody wants to get into, yet everybody knows they can't make any money doing it. So, obviously, we have to support them. I'd never have thought of even tipping them, until it was mentioned on here. We had some students trips ($25 for 2-dives and lunch), and I can promise you that the diver master didn't expect any tips from us. Did they still do a great job? Definitely. Would I recommend them to others? Definitely.

- ChillyWaters

Let me rephrase your first sentence. If someone's *employer* expects that they will be tipped, then you should give one. Yes. That means the person's salary is being artifically depressed with the expectation that tips will cover the difference. DMs seem to be in that category, at least in the U.S., so I tip what I consider reasonable for reasonable service. What I tip is adjusted up or down based on how good of a job they did.

I have no problems not tipping in professions/countries where it is not expected and no problems tipping where it is. Just figure out what the local custom is and act accordingly. If you don't, someone *else* is paying for part of your meal or your vacation since if no one tipped, the employee would have to be paid more by the employer and consequently it would be added to your price.

Maybe that's not the way it should be, but it is the way it is.

 

[TCDiver1]

Culturally speaking, like Chilly was doing, I'm kinda sick of a growing American cultural concept of entitlement, and I'll tend to do the opposite of what is believed to be such just to make the point.

I don't see tipping as an entitlement. I view an entitlement as something people think they deserve for no work or little effort. I tip only if the effort is put forth to take good care of me and mine. Far, far from an entitlement in my book. Thats not to say there isn't people or professions out they that expect tips when they don't deserve them. The penny tip sends the message nicely when that happens.

This discussion is a black hole by the way.

 

[neophyte]

This discussion is a black hole by the way.

I think you're right. These threads pop up every few months and always seem to get sucked into/create the black hole you speak of. For that reason I'll post one last time, and closer to the original topic than any of my other posts so far. I'll be specific and speak only to my own experiences.

I've only done boat dives a few times in the seven months since I've been certified, a dozen dives or so out of about 60. I do a lot more shore diving.

My first boat dive was for OW checkout dives for my wife and I on our honeymoon in Hawaii. It was about a three hour trip (dive spot less than fifteen minutes from the dock) with two dives. I think I left $20 in the boat's tip jar, for the both of us.

We did the next two dives the next day. We, along with our instructor were the only ones on the boat (~30 foot boat, could've handled maybe eight divers) other than the captain. She was furious with the owner of the dive op for "making" her work that day and let us all know it immediately. Apparently there was some conflict as to the schedule. She had someplace else she wanted to be and complained about the boss the entire trip.

She informed our instructor that both dives would be the bare minimum and she expected to see us all back on the boat in exactly 20 minutes. She was friendly enough, sort of, but we were VERY disappointed to be rushed and not able to enjoy any sort of sightseeing with whatever was left in our tanks after skills like we had the day before.

She may have been expecting a tip, but that expectation was anything but justifiable (in my opinion) and she got nothing.

I've done two boat dives here in sunny SoCal. On one boat the food was included and amazing, hot snacks in between meals, the DMs actually took our fins off of our feet and handed them up to the deck while we kneeled on the swim platform. They got $30 in the tip jar for me alone.

The last boat dive was nice enough, gave good briefings and answered my questions, but no one went out of their way the way they had on the boat I just described. The food was burgers and such (not included), with candy bars and soda available for purchase. They got $20 in the jar.

I don't know if divers are stingier with their tips than fishermen, although I'll admit I'm now curious. I wonder if it has to do with (hopefully) walking away with several pounds of meat. I wonder if spear fisherman comprise some middle ground.

Anyway, hopefully that's helpful to someone or other.

 

[gonetobaja]

I don't know if divers are stingier with their tips than fishermen, although I'll admit I'm now curious. I wonder if it has to do with (hopefully) walking away with several pounds of meat. I wonder if spear fisherman comprise some middle ground.


Yep, If I have a group of freedive spearos and they get into good fish I usualy get a nice tip.

GTB
www.gonetobaja.com

 

[Charlie59]

Soooo, my post was rude. Well get over it swissguy. And kiss my foot if you see me give a generous tip and you don't like it. It is none of your dang business.

Or as the Canadians say "straight up".:mooner:

And in your honor, my next dive in Grand Cayman, I'm tipping 100% of the dive costs, how do you feel now tightwad?

 

[RICoder]

I don't see tipping as an entitlement. I view an entitlement as something people think they deserve for no work or little effort. I tip only if the effort is put forth to take good care of me and mine. Far, far from an entitlement in my book. Thats not to say there isn't people or professions out they that expect tips when they don't deserve them. The penny tip sends the message nicely when that happens.

This discussion is a black hole by the way.

That was essentially the gist of my post, that when it is considered an entitlement, the person thinking they are entitled usually gets no tip from me. Otherwise, I always tip, and often over-tip.

And...er...yeah, Stephen Hawking is gonna study this post.

 

[SparticleBrane]

As a general rule I'll tip DM or mates who actually have to work. Someone who jumps over the side of the boat to anchor us into the wreck--I appreciate that. If they didn't do it someone else would have to. They might hit 100fsw+ 5-6 times/day doing bounce dives to secure the anchor depending on who they work for--that's putting them at a considerable risk to their health--possible DCS, ear equalization problems, etc. Sometimes what they're anchoring in to actually breaks off and then they have to go undo the anchor off that and put it onto another part of the wreck. It's a dangerous business...

Now down in the Florida Keys that's a different story. With a mooring ball all the DM has to do is connect the boat to the ball with a hook. They don't jump in the water, they say a rehearsed speech they've said 23498729487*10^73 times, they say "good job" no matter how awful the dive went (ok that's just a pet peeve of mine), etc. They're definitely not getting as much of a tip as the guys who actually have to work.

Just my 0.2 psi.

 

[HowDidIGetIntoThis?]

I long ago gave up worrying about whether it is fair that people should (have to) rely on tips as a significant portion of their income, or whether it is fair that the front-line person gets a tip while the support workers 20' away may get nothing. As one who travels a fair bit I'm much more interested in acting in a manner that is in keeping with the standards of the local culture rather than passing judgement on that aspect of the culture.

I'm therefore usually quite grateful when a service provider provides some sort of guidelines as to whether tipping is a normal part of their economy, and the appropriate rates "if you feel the service has met or surpassed your expectations". One can't simply assume that because you are in a certain country the tipping rates are going to be the same everywhere. How does one handle an all-inclusive resort where tipping is specifically discouraged, if not banned, but you suspect that the resort's dive operator is very much on the periphery of the resort's operation? Certainly, I could interrogate every worker that I have an interaction with during the vacation but it isn't a lot of fun.

The comments regarding tipping every day vs. at the end of a dive trip are interesting. I prefer the latter approach rather than trying to keep cash dry each day but agree that it is problematic if there is no guarantee that the same people will be crewing the boat every day. On my last trip I gave the tip to the dive operator at the end of the trip and asked him to distribute it to his staff. In such small community I couldn't imagine him stiffing his own workers/friends, but one never can be sure. BTW, that boat didn't have a tip bucket.

As an aside, when we were in Belize the suggestion at the hotel was to tip 20% of the bill, and to leave the tip at the front desk so that they could distribute it to all the staff and not just the chambermaids. Has anyone else run into this? Local customs aside, this struck me as being a very large tip. I'll admit that, in the end, I wasn't that generous.