Tipping - how much and are we cheap

[Charlie59]

Since when did Canadians start saying "my bad", eh?

 

[ChillyWaters]

Since when did Canadians start saying "my bad", eh?

For a long time. I think I picked it up playing basketball... I also say g'day, bloody, mate, football (er, soccer), no worries, etc.

Imagine... we live in a multicultural world, we travel, we mingle, we pick up new things. That's definitely a positive thing.

- ChillyWaters

 

[El Orans]

Folks, we're talking about people. Not about nationalities. Capice?

 

[labaum]

Hmmm... so as long as someone expects a tip, then you should give one, eh?
NO: That is not under the heading of reasonable, customary, or appropriate.

It's odd, because in the last 10 years, it seems the number of people expecting tips as risen dramatically. I think it's sad that we tip some people and not others. I'm still up for not tipping anyone and letting the employer deal with proper wages and quality control.
ME TOO: But that's not reality and not how it works.

I bet everyone at your local grocer doesn't make a huge wage (cashier, stock boys, etc.), yet I bet you don't tip them. If you hit your local mall, I bet most of those people make very low money, but they don't get tipped. Oh yeah, and the janitors of most buildings do a very important service, but don't get tipped. But, I guess they don't "expect" it yet, mostly due to social expectations, so we can ignore them, right?
EXACTLY MY POINT: Tilting at windmills, ranting about janitors and stockboys is mumbo jumbo. What does that have to do with fairly tipping people who deserve tips in our economic system?

Oh yeah, but those poor DMs who chose a profession that everybody wants to get into, yet everybody knows they can't make any money doing it. So, obviously, we have to support them. I'd never have thought of even tipping them, until it was mentioned on here. We had some students trips ($25 for 2-dives and lunch), and I can promise you that the diver master didn't expect any tips from us. Did they still do a great job? Definitely. Would I recommend them to others? Definitely.
SO: Being a DM is a fun job that people like and you shouldn't tip them? Like I keep saying, you can rationalize it all you want when you don't tip. Fun job, people want in....then don't tip.
Your quote says it all, "I'd never have thought of even tipping them, until it was mentioned on here". We're just two different people. I would have never thought of not tipping them!

 

[friscuba]

Knowing I may get a 10 yard penalty, I'm still going to KIND OF side with Chilly on this.

I don't think you should tip everyone, and certainly not everyone that EXPECTS it. Heck, the girl at my local Dunkin Donuts shop expects a tip at the drive through...that's not going to happen.

IMO (once again, nothing H about my O) a person deserves a tip for doing something in the SERVING capacity when they do an exceptional job or go above and beyond the norm. For instance, if my bartender or waiter is quick with response and pleasant to deal with, they get the average. If they go out of their way to attend to my needs, maybe they get more. DM's fall into this category for me. If they ignore me on a dive, I'd ignore them at the tip jar, but if they are attentive to the people on the boat, and change gear and do those usual things, they get the average. If they are listening to needs and going out of their way to point of fish because people want to know, or if they take us to sites and give us history because we want to know, well they get more.

Tipping should be for service, bad service deserves no tip. I read Chillywaters as making the argument that no DM should EVER get a tip, they chose their profession and that's it period. Perhaps I'm wrong in the read of his earlier post (#96).

 

[labaum]

Friscuba, god bless you as you're much more eloquent than I am after all my posts. I read Chilly the exact same way you did and that's why I reacted as I did.
I agree that tipping is an art not a science and a number of factors (personal, financial, and otherwise) need to be factored into the amount. But, "Chillywaters...making the argument that no DM should EVER get a tip, they chose their profession and that's it period" doesn't seem right to me. If nothing else, your view gives me the chance I've been looking for, to gracefully bow out of this and stop trading posts with Chilly. He can have the last word.

 

[ChillyWaters]

Hmmm... so as long as someone expects a tip, then you should give one, eh?
NO: That is not under the heading of reasonable, customary, or appropriate.

Actually, you wrote "and yes, even expected," so you said it is expected.

ME TOO: But that's not reality and not how it works.

This is the exact reason I called you a lemming. That's the way it is, so be it, eh?

EXACTLY MY POINT: Tilting at windmills, ranting about janitors and stockboys is mumbo jumbo. What does that have to do with fairly tipping people who deserve tips in our economic system?

Well, first. Are you saying that janitors and stockboys don't deserve tips? What makes a DM more deserving than a janitor. Do you not like you seats clean? Do they not go through a lot to make your next $hit a positive experience? If you don't tip everybody that deserves it, you are in essence a hipocrit. Anyways, as I've already said a few times, I've never said that I don't tip.

SO: Being a DM is a fun job that people like and you shouldn't tip them? Like I keep saying, you can rationalize it all you want when you don't tip. Fun job, people want in....then don't tip.

Okay, so Bob chooses his fun profession (that everybody else also wants to do) and doesn't make much money, and I guess I'm supposed to feel sorry for his decision and am supposed to pay him tips? Now THAT sounds like charity.

At least janitors and such don't necessarily choose their profession for fun, but out of necessity, and is due a little more attention than Joe Blow who wants to spend some time on the water to have fun.

Your quote says it all, "I'd never have thought of even tipping them, until it was mentioned on here". We're just two different people. I would have never thought of not tipping them!

Sorry for not thinking of everybody who expects a tip. Did you think of the janitor before this thread? Are you going to tip him next time you see him? Or are you going to be a hypocrit?

- ChillyWaters

 

[Lightning Fish]

I bet everyone at your local grocer doesn't make a huge wage (cashier, stock boys, etc.), yet I bet you don't tip them. If you hit your local mall, I bet most of those people make very low money, but they don't get tipped. Oh yeah, and the janitors of most buildings do a very important service, but don't get tipped. But, I guess they don't "expect" it yet, mostly due to social expectations, so we can ignore them, right?
EXACTLY MY POINT: Tilting at windmills, ranting about janitors and stockboys is mumbo jumbo. What does that have to do with fairly tipping people who deserve tips in our economic system?

So why don't you tip the cashier or person who bags your groceries? They are providing you with a service.

 

[AlexMDiver]

Hmmm... so as long as someone expects a tip, then you should give one, eh?

It's odd, because in the last 10 years, it seems the number of people expecting tips as risen dramatically. I think it's sad that we tip some people and not others. I'm still up for not tipping anyone and letting the employer deal with proper wages and quality control.

I bet everyone at your local grocer doesn't make a huge wage (cashier, stock boys, etc.), yet I bet you don't tip them. If you hit your local mall, I bet most of those people make very low money, but they don't get tipped. Oh yeah, and the janitors of most buildings do a very important service, but don't get tipped. But, I guess they don't "expect" it yet, mostly due to social expectations, so we can ignore them, right?

Oh yeah, but those poor DMs who chose a profession that everybody wants to get into, yet everybody knows they can't make any money doing it. So, obviously, we have to support them. I'd never have thought of even tipping them, until it was mentioned on here. We had some students trips ($25 for 2-dives and lunch), and I can promise you that the diver master didn't expect any tips from us. Did they still do a great job? Definitely. Would I recommend them to others? Definitely.

- ChillyWaters

Some truth here.
I think people here are not arguing on spending the money for a great dive, just in what form/way it is spent. In a clear and obvious manner, or via unspoken ambiguous rules.

It is like this: Recently went on a boat trip with terrible DM service. I talked to the dive op about it. He said, ok, if the service is bad...don't tip. Ok, so I am not interested in a 50 buck dive with bad service. Tell me instead how much you charge for a dive with great service, I will gladly pay the difference in advance. If the dive trip costs 60 bucks instead of 50, but comes with excellent service and attitude by the DMs, then all would be happy. Better even if it comes with a satisfaction guarantee. An approach like this might turn some business successful.
I just don't like it if it is 50 bucks and then there is a silent (or not so silent) expectation for another 15 bucks in tips, especially if service has been at best mediocre. If the customer then does not tip, try coming back and getting a smile or some help.

Unspoken tipping rules are not consistent across industries, allow exploitation of staff and in the way it is escalating in certain tourist areas is unsustainable. Why not fill out an anonymous scorecard after each dive on the performance of the staff. The staff that comes out on top gets the biggest monthly bonus by the operator. Ok, stupid idea, but better than the current situation maybe.

The argument that DMs are poor hard working people that deserve the spare penny...err....sorry....20 bucks....applies to many other people with a lot less interesting jobs.

It's like the painter I had at the house the other day. He did a poor messy job for what he quoted. He said, the quote was very cheap. Ok, then tell me how much you charge for a good job. Don't tell me how much a bad job is. Not interested then.

Again, there are LOTS of excellent DMs there that do not work for the tip. But again, it seems there are increasing numbers that do, and this hurts our industry.

 

[AlexMDiver]

Please grow up people!

If you want to tip, but don't know how much, then give 10-20% of the cost and you will be okay and noone is likely to talk bad about you.

If you do not want to tip then don't, but please be big enough in your decision not to give a damn about what others think. Rationalization about why or why not is not significant to the original question here.

If you can't or won't part with your money, get some thick skin. I for one am tired of your bellyaching.

But this is insane, "give 20% of the cost and you will be okay and noone is likely to talk bad about you".
Why should someone talk or think badly about you? What have you done, if you pay for a dive trip slated as 50 dollars and go on the trip, say thank you and leave. Why is it an expected rule. Seriously, do you tip your janitor in your office, the mailperson, the busdriver, the person at the supermarket packing your bags, the dental hygienist cleaning your teeth that then sends you a juicy bill? Does telling people "I tip 20 bucks a tank" make you feel like a big-hearted generous person that is well-loved by DMs an everyone else in the world and does it make you feel superior to those that do not tip as much, since they either can't afford it, work eaqually hard for their money and most of all appreciate a fair and clear system of exchanging money for service or goods?
Most people here arguing against tipping are not cheapskates and they do like spending money, but have a problem with the current expected tipping pressure.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but your post is plainly rude (bellyaching comment).