Throw away your Explorer - the Halcyon Evolve is here

[ericfine50]

What would be really cool - a 3 way comparison between DSS, Halcyon, and Oxycheq. Similar to the Scooter Shoot Out "Diver" Magazine ran this summer.

 

[drbill]

I have both oval and horseshoe type wings. The horseshoe ones have really been a PITA in terms of the type of work I do (videography). I am often on or near the bottom and filming down on a subject. Therefore I need to dump air in a butt-up position and the oval wing is much better suited for that. Of course as Tobin pointed out most people don't dive butt-up, so for most others this may not apply.

 

[Adam_sc]

Stephen, I may be in the market for a double wing pretty soon. Can you be a bit more specific as to why you feel Agir's single is a better wing than Eclipse. Is that the quality of workmanship, the shape or is it just nicer to dive in?

Thanks,
Oleg

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen, I may be in the market for a double wing pretty soon. Can you be a bit more specific as to why you feel Agir's single is a better wing than Eclipse. Is that the quality of workmanship, the shape or is it just nicer to dive in?

Thanks,
Oleg

I'm sure that the Eclipse is a fine wing. Everyone that has one seems to love it. Regarding the quality of workmanship, I would say the two are equal. Likewise, both companies have a stellar reputation for customer support.

I only had a very short time to compare the two. I do not own an Eclpse (I'm a Pioneer addict). However, the Agir 'seems' to have a tougher outer shell. Perhaps it only appears that way...I didn't test 'em with a sharp stick! The material used in the Agir is a nylon coated cordura. It 'feels' very thick and gives the impression of a near-bullet proof outer shell.

In contrast, the Eclipse's outer shell 'feels' much thinner and less puncture resistant. This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir. Maybe it's my personal preference for rougher materials but the Agir shell simply appears to me to be MUCH more substantial.

As I said above, I really like my Pioneer wings. I've used my 27# wing for 4 years with noooo problems and my little 18# batwing is just simply a work of art! ( I should add that my 45# Explorer has been great with my little Al80 twins.) Because they do not have an outer shell the Pioneers are more streamlined and fold up very small for travel. Also, they seem to dump air better than the inner bladder/outer shell wings. But, I baby my Pioneers. I don't just toss 'em in the back of my pickup. I always break down my rigs and put the wings in a safe place. On a boat I'm constantly on the lookout for things that might damage them.

When my focus shifts to having a tougher, more punture resistant, worry free wing, then I use a wing with an outer shell. It is this reason that the Agir seems to be a better choice. It just appears tougher. I can toss my assembled rig in the back of the truck and not worry about it getting torn. I can swim thru or under flooded Palo Verde trees - a common obstacle in our lakes - without concern over the health of my wing. The edges of a wreck present less a threat to the thick strong shell. I can toss it in the corner of the boat without a second thought.

Then there is the issue of the inflator. Agir uses the same tried and true inflator that we have become used to. Halcyon says that they have addressed the problems with their SS inflator, yet so many people seem to still be having problems. Maybe the H inflator inflator is just fine...but I would probably just change it out.

As far as dive-ability...I have just a few dives on the Agir...but it seems just fine. I did notice that it 'seems' a little harder to vent than the Pioneer...but I suspect that will get easier the more I use it. I can't compare it to the Eclipse because I haven't had the chance to dive one of those.

On the other hand, the Agir single is a horseshoe wing. That's fine with me...I don't care one way or the other. But some divers are going to prefer the donut Eclipse.

With respect to DIR equipment concerns, the Agir is as DIR as any wing can be.

 

[jonnythan]

"nylon coated cordura"

What does this mean? Cordura is a brand-name nylon from DuPont.


"This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir."

The lower the denier, the smoother the fabric (generally). Denier refers to the weight of the fiber.. so in general, a higher denier means thicker individual strands. High denier tends to correspond to high abrasion resistance but poor puncture resistance.. low denier tends to correspond to the opposite. This is the reason you see high deniers for outer bags and low deniers for inner bladders.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

"nylon coated cordura"

What does this mean? Cordura is a brand-name nylon from DuPont.


"This may be a result of the very high denier count in the Eclipse's nylon shell which gives it a very smooth texture in comparison to the Agir."

The lower the denier, the smoother the fabric (generally). Denier refers to the weight of the fiber.. so in general, a higher denier means thicker individual strands. High denier tends to correspond to high abrasion resistance but poor puncture resistance.. low denier tends to correspond to the opposite. This is the reason you see high deniers for outer bags and low deniers for inner bladders.

Arrrr...you're right, Matey.

Nylon starts it life as a petroleum based liquid. It then gets squeezed out through a small opening, or spinneret. The size of the opening determines the size of the thread. A denier is the weight in grams of 9000 meters of that thread. So, 9000 meters of 400 denier thread will weigh 400 grams. So, a high denier cloth will be heavier than a lower denier fabric. The strength of that fabric is probably more related to thread count...or the tightness of the weave.

To be honest, I'm pretty much talking out my rear at this point...I know nada about fabrics. All I know is what 'feels' tough to me. The material in the Agir single 'feels' just a tad thicker than the shell of my Explorer, looks like it MIGHT not be as tight a weave as the Explorer, is a bit more coarse and is just a wee bit shiny. The seams on the Agir appear like they would last a lifetime. I have no idea what nyon coated cordura means...that's just how Agir describes their shell. I don't think that I can give you any scientific basis for my impression of the Agir shell material...it simply just felt much more substantial than the shell of the Eclipse. Again...to be fair...I had just a few minutes with the Eclipse. It was just my initial impression that if I was looking for a wing with a bullet proof shell, I would pick the Agir over the Eclipse...no question.

However one looks at it, the Agir is very well made and is pleasingly very DIR. It's nice to have another option. I remember the time when...at least for me...Halcyon was the only choice. Now we have several product lines to choose from. I think that's great.

I have to admit...part of me likes using gear that is a bit...hmmm...esoteric...unusual...different...but of extraordinary quality. After I've finally convinced all my buds to stock up on Halcyon gear, I want to pull out a Golem and start it all over again!

 

[GreenDiverDown]

O.K. After some more studying on fabrics and a little soul searching I'll agree that these two probably are very similar with respect to resistance to injury. I think the two manufacturers just take different approaches with respect to fabric. While their choice in fabric is different it seems that both have chosen very high quality materials. I might also add that both use an inner bladder that is very similar.

Agir uses a Cordura (I am unable to find what denier) for its outer shell. It advertises this as a nylon coated Cordura but I believe this is actually a Cordura, DWR, urethane coated. Halcyon, OTOH, uses a 1680 denier Ballistic Nylon.

The inner bladder of the Agir is a 420 denier Cordura "puncturesafe" lifejacket material, whereas the Eclipse use a puncture-resistant 400-denier Nylon.

I can't account for why the Agir felt much better to my hand than the Eclipse...it just did. I don't have an Eclipse available to look at this more closely. I do own an older Explorer and the two are pretty similar inside and out.

Here are a few pics of the Agir showing the fabric and the seams...

 

[Adam_sc]

O.K. After some more studying on fabrics and a little soul searching I'll agree that these two probably are very similar with respect to resistance to injury. I think the two manufacturers just take different approaches with respect to fabric. While their choice in fabric is different it seems that both have chosen very high quality materials. I might also add that both use an inner bladder that is very similar.

Agir uses a Cordura (I am unable to find what denier) for its outer shell. It advertises this as a nylon coated Cordura but I believe this is actually a Cordura, DWR, urethane coated. Halcyon, OTOH, uses a 1680 denier Ballistic Nylon.

The inner bladder of the Agir is a 420 denier Cordura "puncturesafe" lifejacket material, whereas the Eclipse use a puncture-resistant 400-denier Nylon.

I can't account for why the Agir felt much better to my hand than the Eclipse...it just did. I don't have an Eclipse available to look at this more closely. I do own an older Explorer and the two are pretty similar inside and out.

Here are a few pics of the Agir showing the fabric and the seams...

Stephen, thanks for the excellent comparison. I own the Eclipse and so far have had no problems and enjoyed using it. But as you have mentioned it is nice to have alternatives and since Halcyon and Agir wings are almost indistinguishable in terms of pricing in my area I thought I would ask for a first hand experience. BTW I have an AGIR SPG and while this is more like comparing apples to oranges the quality of the gauge is simply top-notch with nice features like a luminous dial and a brass body. So I would imagine their other products should be equally well-made.

 

[lof]

Consider Golem Wings in your comparison. Inner bladder is 650 RF welded Cordura,
the outer bladder is 2000 abrasion resistant Cordura. The dump valve and inflator hose elbow aremade of softer plastic sothey will not crack when banged around on the boat or during transport.
Rock solid wings, very streamlined.

https://www.golemgear.com/c-2-bcdswings.aspx

Jakub

 

[Adam_sc]

Thanks. Golem looks like a very good wing. In fact there are almost way too many to choose from - DSS, Oxycheq, Golem, Agir and Halcyon. Sometime you wonder if the life was easier with fewer choices to make... Honestly having read this thread I am now torn apart as to what to buy.