Three strikes and you're out... I've now written off PADI

[Deefstes]

Seems odd to blame the agency, for individuals who fail to maintain/follow/understand that agencies standards and practices.
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It seems to me that the OP is criticising PADI for the actions of individuals who are not following PADI's guidelines. There's no logic to that...

I know, most people have pointed out that I'm judging the agency for the actions of a few individuals. I expected that you'd say that, I even said so in my original post.

In a way I knew I was wrong on that score before I even made my post. But you'd have to agree, it is a natural way of thinking, however wrong it might be. How many people have written off Christianity due to the actions of Christians? But let's not open that can of worms. What I'm saying is, I know these guys don't embody PADI and it's policies, they're just three individuals who have their own particular way of doing things which rubs me the wrong way. Because they (or at least two of them) claimed that there was something wrong with the agency that trained me, I drew the conclusion that there is something wrong with the agency that they purportedly represent - not as illogical as you say.

And to be clear, when I say I've written off PADI, I'm not saying that I will never dive with anyone who has any affiliation with PADI again. All I'm saying is, I love to learn more about SCUBA and get other people's opinions on diving issues (like safety stops), but the next time a PADI diver, DM or instructor makes any claims on good or bad practices, I'll take it with a bit of salt, remembering these fruitcakes who also claimed to speak for PADI.

The PADI position on safety stops is very clear. They are recommended on every dive. They are a mandatory part of dive planning for dives below 30m and certain repetitive dives. However, they are still only a safety measure - and would be disregarded if an emergency meant that getting to the surface quickly was critical.

Can you criticise PADI for that?

Of course not. I like that! In fact, it pretty much sums up how I feel about safety stops and how I have been trained. I'm not 100% sure I understand the part "They are a mandatory part of dive planning for dives below 30m and certain repetitive dives" as I consider safety stops a mandatory part of dive planning for ANY dive. In other words, I never plan to do a dive that will not incorporate a safety stop but then again, I will leave room for contingencies and I will not do a safety stop when I deem it to remove a level of safety from my dive (such as in the scenario of you being swept into the open sea by a strong current when you are separated from your buddy and the group).

But I'm glad you posted the above because now I know what PADI says about safety stops and it is a far cry from "always do your safety stops, no matter what".

Dive operation has standard operating procedures applicable to the local environment and based on a long history of risk assessments. Dive operations expect their customers to adhere to those procedures.

I can appreciate that many dive operators/pros would not feel that 'debating' or 'discussing' was a required part of their customer service provision.

It is nice if dive staff have the time/energy to validate every one of their operating procedures with customers, but it is also understandable that they sometimes won't.

OK, that's a very good point and I agree, the operator is not under any obligation to justify every one of their operating procedures to every customer who tries to be a smart-arse.

And as seaducer has alluded to, I might well have come across as being a smart-arse, although it certainly wasn't my intention.

But I'd like to say two things in response to your last comment;
First of all, I don't care what the operator's standard procedure is, I will dive the way I have been trained and which I believe is safe. Of course I will conform to their procedures as regards kitting up on the boat, entering the water, following the DM and the discussed dive plan, but I WILL NOT do a safety stop when I find myself separated from my buddy and the group and I'm in a raging current taking me who knows where, regardless of what the operator's standard procedure might be and especially not if they can't provide a good reason for why doing so would be a good idea.

Secondly, while the operator is under no obligation to justify their procedures it wouldn't hurt to discuss diving practices with those who are interested. Earlier in the day this instructor and I were discussing how high the cylinder should be mounted in the BC. He reckoned mine was mounted too high and I explained to him that it helps me to sort out my feet-heavy trim. He didn't seem to take any issue with me having a differing opinion there. I was about to move the cylinder down when he said, "no, if you're feet-heavy, leave it like that and see how it works. You can adjust it after the dive if you agree that it is too high". Sure enough, I did adjust it slightly after the first dive when I realised the rented BCD had a different fit than mine.

I don't understand why discussing safety stops couldn't be conducted in a similar way. We're two divers on a boat with nothing else to do than chat while we wait for the boat to get to the dive site. Would it really hurt to offer some insights on why you believe so firmly in "always do your safety stop, no matter what"?

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

PADI has built their agency on quick easy classes. Those appear to occur at all levels, and that is precisely what most of their customers want. It may not be realistic to expect in depth knowledge from people who took a class that was designed to pump out dive masters with just 50 dives. They know what’s in the book, and sometimes not even that much. Having people with little experience teaching people with no experience is a prescription to have a minimally knowledgeable set of divers. The result is you have rote recitation of the rules, even if the reason behind the rules is not known. One result is “do your safety stop at 15 feet” regardless if that makes sense or not.

 

[ScubaSteve]

And with that, the fun begins.

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI has built their agency on quick easy classes. Those appear to occur at all levels,....

Yep...it is a modular system, based on small increments.

Quick, easy classes + well defined limitations.

The system doesn't work so well when people start to exceed those limitations... whether that is a diver exceeding depth/NDL/conditions... or whether it is an instructor commenting about something they haven't been trained or educated about.

A PADI open water instuctor is just that... someone who is trained to teach basic scuba classes. It's unrealistic to expect them to have gained any in-depth debating knowledge on deco models, because it is not something they will have been exposed to - or would ever have to teach under that system.

 

[Ste Wart]

My 2 cents:

Depth of Safety stop; To my understanding the norm always used to be a 3m stop. However it was reduced (increased?) to 5m as it is easier to maintain a 5 m stop in rough seas.

Missing Diver & Safety stops; I've always briefed to omit the safety stop in a lost buddy scenario. For 2 reasons
1: Safety stop, it is not required hence the name, we do them for added safety
2: we don't actually know how long the buddy has been missing, to add an extra 3 minutes for a safety increases the time you are both missing. Therefore slowly ascend, reunite on the surface and then decide whether to resume the dive or exit the water.

Dive Count: I have quoted numbers in the past, so I can't fault the Thailand Instructor for showing off his numbers. However in this instance he was clearly being a tool.

 

[Zippsy]

PADI has built their agency on quick easy classes. Those appear to occur at all levels, and that is precisely what most of their customers want. It may not be realistic to expect in depth knowledge from people who took a class that was designed to pump out dive masters with just 50 dives. They know what’s in the book, and sometimes not even that much. Having people with little experience teaching people with no experience is a prescription to have a minimally knowledgeable set of divers. The result is you have rote recitation of the rules, even if the reason behind the rules is not known. One result is “do your safety stop at 15 feet” regardless if that makes sense or not.

I know I'll get banned if I call this guy a clueless freaking idiot but am I allowed to point out that he must be a troll?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yep...it is a modular system, based on small increments.

Quick, easy classes + well defined limitations.

The system doesn't work so well when people start to exceed those limitations... whether that is a diver exceeding depth/NDL/conditions... or whether it is an instructor commenting about something they haven't been trained or educated about.

A PADI open water instuctor is just that... someone who is trained to teach basic scuba classes. It's unrealistic to expect them to have gained any in-depth debating knowledge on deco models, because it is not something they will have been exposed to - or would ever have to teach under that system.

... and I don't even have a problem with that. The problems begin when they assume that because they have an instructor certification, they're somehow qualified to tell people who have multiple times their experience how to dive. Most of the time they're quoting something they read in their training guides without really understanding why it's there.

I find it rather annoying. But to be fair, it's not just PADI who cranks out instructors like that ... I've met them from most agencies.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Sat Diver]

I am new to recreational diving, having spent 20 years as a commercial diver. I have been recreation diving certified by PADI, and thought the instructor was fantastic.
I have dived several years longer than he has, probably 14 years, but he stuck to the plan. Absolutely professional.
My "first" open water dive was in pretty rough water. Conditions that I was a lot more comfortable in than he was. But he still stuck to the plan.
Also insisted on a surface buoy , which was great.
I have great respect for him, and PADI.
Ps. As someone who spent his first seven years as a saturation diver, I can tell you that a deeper safety stop is better than a shallower one.
Those rules have been made by people with some brains and experience, don't mock them.

Btw. Loving my new lease as a recreational diver, sucks to pay for trimix though.

 

[charlesml3]

Hey Deefstes,

I do understand what you're saying and I'm pretty sure you don't really believe it's PADI alone that's causing the problem here.

I think my concern here is the fact that you're an established diver and your friends and family are going to look to you for advice. In that case, you may be inclined to just rip on PADI to the point that any aspiring new diver would avoid any PADI dive center no matter what. That's not a good thing, really. There are some very good PADI instructors and the advice should come at that level of granularity, not the entire agency.

This reminds me of my last trip to Cocoview in Roatan a couple of years ago. Cocoview is very "Nitrox friendly" and diving the amount you do it's really a good idea there. Anyway, I'd been to Cocoview several times and noticed that on this particular trip there were quite a few more air divers than normal. Being the curious sort I started asking around and found that they were a group from the same dive shop.

Further questions narrowed it down to one guy, the owner. Who'd told all of his students that they didn't need to bother with that "Devil Gas." Yea. And this was 2008...

-Charles

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hey Deefstes,

I do understand what you're saying and I'm pretty sure you don't really believe it's PADI alone that's causing the problem here.

I think my concern here is the fact that you're an established diver and your friends and family are going to look to you for advice. In that case, you may be inclined to just rip on PADI to the point that any aspiring new diver would avoid any PADI dive center no matter what. That's not a good thing, really. There are some very good PADI instructors and the advice should come at that level of granularity, not the entire agency.

This reminds me of my last trip to Cocoview in Roatan a couple of years ago. Cocoview is very "Nitrox friendly" and diving the amount you do it's really a good idea there. Anyway, I'd been to Cocoview several times and noticed that on this particular trip there were quite a few more air divers than normal. Being the curious sort I started asking around and found that they were a group from the same dive shop.

Further questions narrowed it down to one guy, the owner. Who'd told all of his students that they didn't need to bother with that "Devil Gas." Yea. And this was 2008...

-Charles

"If I don't sell it, you don't need it" is a very common business philosophy among dive shop owners ... regardless of agency affiliation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)