Three strikes and you're out... I've now written off PADI

[Cave Diver]

Actually my last TSA experience in Texas was rather pleasant ... she was cute ... and she called me "Hon" ...

Did she call you "Hon" before or after she frisked you? I'm guessing it was before, otherwise she'd have called you "Shugah."

 

[BrianKon]

I will be honest when i say I did not read all the threads, but I did read the first 5 pages.

I understand your dismay over your incidents, and yes you should have probably gotten better responses to your questions, however.

Always remember YOU are responsible for your own safety. Use your training.

Scenario 1. You have a dive computer for a reason, use it. I am sure it can calculate alorithm's better than you or I.

Scenario 2: a PADI OW Diver you can dive recreationally to 45M, as instructors we are taught to suggest diving with your training and limits, however YOU are responsible for your own safety, it was that divers decsion to follow the instructor below 30M, the DM stopped the group according to the dive plan, etc. I don't see where your problem is.

Scenario 3: did I mention YOU are responsible for your own safety? You should not blame anyone but yourself for doing a deep and drift dive without all three surface signaling safety devices. And yes it is advisable to float and wait for a pick-up.

You shouldn't be getting your panties in a bunch over the safety stop issues.

however for any divers that were not Advanced Open Water, Deep Diver or Drift Diver trained, the DM should have reviewed safety contingencies as part of the dive briefing

If you have questions about proper safety procedures, get a training book and read it, you do not neccessarily have to take a class, but it is preferred. At least you could plan for contingencies that way.

I hope this helps, if you are so concerned for other divers safety, perhaps you should become an instructor... that why i did it.

good luck

 

[burak]

i am a CMAS diver and even I think that these 3 scenarios have nothing in particular to do with padi.

these 3 would have done exactly the same things if they were cmas or ssi instructors.

 

[Zippsy]

Scenario 2: a PADI OW Diver you can dive recreationally to 45M, as instructors we are taught to suggest diving with your training and limits, however YOU are responsible for your own safety, it was that divers decsion to follow the instructor below 30M, the DM stopped the group according to the dive plan, etc. I don't see where your problem is.

I am pretty sure that was a typo. PADI recommends OW divers stay above (shallower than) 18m, AOW stay above 30m and those with the Deep Diver specialty stay above 40m, right? They count only dives shallower than 40m as recreational.

 

[DevonDiver]

Scenario 2: a PADI OW Diver you can dive recreationally to 45M, as instructors we are taught to suggest diving with your training and limits,

Yeah, this must be a typo....

PADI are quite specific that 40m is the max depth for recreational divers (who have deep diver training). They recommend 30m following AOW and 18m following OW.

45m is the max recommended depth for divers who have completed the Tec45 course - which is firmly outside of the recreational boundaries.

It'd be impossible to define any meaningful dive to 45m as recreational, because of NDL alone. PADI is very clear that recreational divers should not exceed NDLs or go into decompression.

 

[Diver0001]

...snip... Over the two years following our certification those worries were gradually allayed and now I've reached the point where I am honestly thankful that I did not get certified through PADI.

Scenario 1:

Now I'm sure there's room for debate on what depth is better for a safety stop but that you'd off gas quicker at 5m than you would at 3m is patently untrue and only a complete fool would use such a bull**** argument to attack another agency's training.

It would have been interesting to ask follow-up questions to see where that opinion came from. It's true that some instructors and many divers don't understand decompression theory very well. It's a fact (given what you said) that this particular instructor didn't seem to understand it. It's also a fact that every Divemaster in the PADI system learns the mechanics of the Haldane model and should be able to explain and understand it's working. It's also a fact that a great many PADI instructors (alas, as we can see, not all) *do* have a thorough understanding of decompression theory and are able to explain, for example, why PADI chose 5 metres for the safety-stop depth and not some other depth. It would also be interesting to know if all BSAC instructors are able to explain why BSAC chose 3 metres instead of some other depth. I suspect one could also find BSAC instructors who are unable to explain this choice as well.

Scenario 2:
We're diving in Mozambique with a South African PADI instructor through who's shop we've ...snip alarming story...

Between dives, the instructor takes us on a sight seeing tour of the area in his vehicle, during which he drives around with one hand constantly clutching a beer. Seems his understanding of driving safety is as flawed as his understanding of diving safety.

I'm sorry, Deefstes, but you can't seriously believe that anything about this scenario is a reflection of what PADI would consider professional behavior. It's unacceptable regardless of agency affiliation. What you are doing here is pointing out one example of something and generalizing it to the general case while making the assumption that his training somehow caused it. In terms of logical fallacies it's called "post hoc ergo propter hoc" and is a dead-clear indicator of sloppy thinking. In fact, the first scenario falls under that too, even though one *should* expect that every instructor understands deco-theory.

Scenario 3:
We're diving in Thailand where a British PADI instructor leads our dives. During the first dive briefing he discusses lost buddy procedure and mentions that, if you are separated from your buddy and the group, you ascend slightly, look around for one minute and if you still can't find the group you ascend to the surface, not forgetting to do your safety stop. I'm curious about this idea of a safety stop during diver separation procedure so I ask him about it to which he sternly replies that "you always do a safety stop, no matter what"....snip....

Now I don't know what PADI teaches but I refuse to accept that it is safe protocol to hang below the surface for 3 minutes while you are being swept into the open sea and have no signaling device.

What PADI teaches is to search for a lost buddy for 1 minute and then ascend to the surface and re-assemble on the surface. How this is taught (how the search is executed) is obviously subject to local conditions and/or norms. If you do or do-not perform a safety stop is a matter of procedure for that particular dive. In some cases it's not problematic, in other cases (as in this scenario) it is. The instructor's comment that one "always" does a safety stop irregardless of circumstances, while a nice idea in principle, lacks a sense of realism. I think you will find that there is a wide variation of approaches to lost-buddy scenarios depending on local norms, the experience level of the group in question and/or the instructor's personal preferences. My *guess*, which you could construe as something positive, is that this particular instructor didn't have much experience with lost-buddies in real-world situations. That's a positive thing if you consider that he must be doing something (conscious or not) to avoid it but a negative in the sense that he probably lacked real-world experience. I guess how you see it depends if your cup is half-full or half-empty.

Moreover, it just p*sses me off royally when someone is not willing to discuss the merits or demerits of a certain practice but simply expects me to bow to the superiority of his 4500 dives and follow his silly mantra of "always do a safety stop, no matter what".

I can guarantee you that this kind of arrogance is not limited to the PADI system. It is, however, something that is wide-spread in diving and I would agree with you that many PADI instructors are also afflicted with it. It's sad and unfortunate and I would whole-heartedly agree with you that it is *mega* irritating and a major turn-off.

OK, rant over. I understand that different divers and different agencies have different ways of doing things but these PADI instructors seriously rubbed me the wrong way and it will take a few exemplary PADI instructors to restore my opinion of their agency.

I would say you've focused on three people in the X years you have been diving and that those experiences have been so negative that you reject their entire "system". In some ways I can certainly relate to that because I have had a similar reaction to another "system". On the other hand, you're becoming an experienced diver and you have a discerning and "quick" personality, which will make idiots show up as large dots on your radar. This is something I can relate to as well because I have it too. In my case I have learned through the years to not even *ask* what kind of card someone has and to judge them based on how they dive..... and do you know what I've noticed? If you do that then 99% of divers are just fine -- irregardless of agency --and the other 1% have a screw loose and of that 1% it doesn't really matter what agency they learned through. Their thoughts are not something that their agencies can be held responsible for.

R..

 

[the dive_addict]

HAS any one heard of A .N .S.I. It sets standards for almost every thing. Recreational scuba standards were dveloped by Recreational Scuba Standards Council Every major trainning agency was inoloved and agree to adopt the standards. 15 for 3 sunnto sometimes give a range I would honestly want to see the book that teaches
3for1. I'v done numerous drift dives YEP the 3for15 .remember your budd is following the same procedure you should surface fairly close together.The boat capt is flollow thegroup inflate your sausage hell find you I ant got a dog in the pissin contest iv got cards fronm padi td
y cmas nase.I also dive my homemade rebreather.point is quit bitchen about the name on the card.if someone says different from what you remember read your manual.might prevent mistaksr or save a life, MY SERMON tda

 

[Mark Guccione]

My biggest complaint about SOME PADI instructors is that they had no idea what a Los Angeles County c-card was. I finally had to get a PADI card to satisfy some of them... from a PADI instructor in Cairns, Australia, who not only knew what the L.A. County c-card was but called it a museum piece!

Dr. Bill,
I'm still laughing.....
Don't you know, LA County divers are only allowed to dive in LA County.

 

[JB]

If the open water diver course was more thorough/onerous, very few people would take up the pastime. I think PADI does an amazing job of introducuing people to diving. Sure they don't have immaculate boyancy control, impeccable skills, but for average safe guided vacation dives, it is OK. Open water 1 is not nor ever tried to produce cave divers. If the individual wants to progress, there are then plenty of options open to pursue further training. If it hadn't been for PADI getting most of those people into diving, there would be very few people doing CDAA, TDI etc. courses. If I knew then what I know now, I probably would not have started the course!!
You know it is not a competitive "sport", but listening to a lot of comments, you would swear it was. Can imagine end of the dive discussions, "his boyancy was not as good as mine, air consumption sucked, I'm secure that I am the best diver in the group!!" or "**** that was a terrible dive I wasn't better than everybody else at some abritrary skill." All that energy waisted critiquing every other diver, could be more usefully spent enjoying the dive. We will have to define a new condition "DIVE RAGE".
RELAX AND ENJOY

 

[the dive_addict]

My biggest complaint about SOME PADI instructors is that they had no idea what a Los Angeles County c-card was. I finally had to get a PADI card to satisfy some of them... from a PADI instructor in Cairns, Australia, who not only knew what the L.A. County c-card was but called it a museum piece!

Now,I agree those instructors are a dunce. Was Mike Nelson certified by L.A. County? I know he taught scuba.I saw it on T.V. He had his student hold on to the edge of a barrel sponge to practice kicks.Drbill,can we still do that?