DIR- GUE Thoughts on Halcyon Symbios as an entry point into CCR diving vs a specialized tool?

[steinbil]

My take: it does not fit the GUE standard of D12's as far as I can see (too much clutter on the chest with a already relativly complex config with D12 and stages). Even the JJ is configured in a way that it resembles a doubles config which seems to me seems to be the GUE gold standard. So I guess it will be a specialized add on for GUE sidemount or it won't fit in the GUE curriculum at all.

Clutter on the chest seems to be a very clear disadvantage, and is mentioned also in the Quest article:
"...chestmounted rebreathers are not without their challenges. They can obstruct access to other equipment, such as drysuit inflators or backup lights..."

It's unclear to me how big this disadvantage is, but it would seem to be progressively worse the more equipment you bring in terms of stages, DPVs etc. Which again might reinforce the idea I've heard repeated many times that CM CCRs are not ideal for deep ocean dives, and that the JJ is. However, I don't know how much of a problem it would be on shallower tech dives with less equipment - but then again, maybe those dives are better suited to OC...?

It seems GUE does indeed see its place in the GUE equipment lineup, and the article mentions the integration with GUEs standardized equipment:

"GUEs emphasis on standardization and redundancy is well-served by [CM CCRs]. [They] can be seamlessly integrated into GUE-compliant configurations, ensuring compatibility with team diving protocols and providing reliable backup options."

 

[jborg]

I'm a bit worried by the apparent or real hypocrisy involved in choosing this rebreather as the one alternative to the JJ. The rebreather situation was unusual among agencies but had a real and understandable underpinning in that it was focused on a standardised rebreather that fit in the general GUE context.

Now, apparently, the rationale of that choice goes out of the window -- you can learn the GUE JJ with all the reasons for that, or you can train on this other chestmount wireless rebreather that has nothing in common with the existing concept and apparently nothing to speak for it in a GUE context other than being made by Halcyon. Why just those two? Why not all the other chestmount rebreathers that don't happen to have an H on them? GUE had an undeserved and incorrect reputation for requiring specific regulator brands and whatnot when that was never the case. The same can't be said for rebreathers, apparently.

 

[iliketopetsharks]

Maybe @johnkendall could weigh in on this?

 

[grantmac]

I personally think it's a response to GUE losing market share as the opinions regarding "recreational" CCR use have changed.

 

[PfcAJ]

Once upon a time, GUE’s teaching and methods were born out of real exploration. Super challenging stuff. The things being taught were learned at extreme costs, be it financial (your expedition is ruined) or worse.

Robustness of equipment and technique was *it*. The courses that made GUE great were demanding, pragmatic, accurate; and no nonsense.

Current day sees almost none of that. GUE is mirroring PADI classes (ow, advanced, rescue, this that and the other)… Tthe exact opposite of what made GUE great to begin with. the rebreathers are not reliable (go look at the VUE CCR fb page. It’s pretty much a “my rebreather broke pls help” resource), nor are they proven (the Symbios is brand new). The given choices pigeonhole divers into using bailout volumes that are downright inappropriate. Back when Diepolder was open (FDW), there were instances of lp50s being used for bailout with the JJ in a 300ft+ deep cave because the damn thing is too wide to put larger diameter tanks on it. Not smart.

The more I see this stuff go down and the more I read people talk about what they were taught (or not taught) on their classes, the more I see myself distanced from GUE. It’s still the best game in town, but the score is narrowing.

 

[rjack321]

Is that your opinion on what it should be or what GUE will offer? The Quest article @iliketopetsharks references seems to indicate that they will offer it as a starting point for CCR training. Do you think that would be a mistake? And why?

If you slap it onto a set of doubles maybe. But that's just nonsense.

As a proper SM tool you're not going to go this route with SM cave training

 

[steinbil]

the rebreathers are not reliable (go look at the VUE CCR fb page. It’s pretty much a “my rebreather broke pls help” resource), nor are they proven (the Symbios is brand new). The given choices pigeonhole divers into using bailout volumes that are downright inappropriate.

Are there other CCRs you think GUE should have gone with instead of the JJ? Or do you think the inclusion of CCRs were a mistake?

 

[RedSix]

the rebreathers are not reliable (go look at the VUE CCR fb page. It’s pretty much a “my rebreather broke pls help” resource),

@PfcAJ, usually I agree 100% with your comments. But in this small thing I have to disagree. Just commenting on the JJ: it is a very robust and simple machine. It might be not as robust as a RB80, but in comparison to other eCCRs it might be one of the most robust machines.
Yes, in the GUE CCR group are a lot of posts just asking for help in fixing something with their JJ. But, the group has grown a lot, near to 700 members. Not all 700 members dive a JJ, true, but still I would guess at least 400 to 500 of them? So the group has a reasonable size. We have a "my machine is broken, please help me" post I would guess once month? Is this a lot? Since this is the only place (except for a direct message to your instructor) to ask things? And in I guess 60% the questions are related to the HUD....
In my opinion these questions show something else: to many people are trained on a very advanced machine. People, who have no or not enough understanding how this machine works. And even some instructors don't know enough about the machines to even help these guys.
Just my opinion: not everybody should dive a rebreather. If you don't understand, how this machine works, you shouldn't use it. If your not able to fix small issues with the machine on your own, don't dive it! Sometimes it would be good, if the instructor tells the student, that the machine is not suitable for them. But hey, if you can earn >2k$/€ with the class (and if you need the money to survive), just go... Back to your tune ;-)

Edit: and if the Simbios gets part of the GUE curriculum I am quite sure we will have way more "my Simbios is broken" than my "my JJ is broken" posts ;-)

 

[AJ]

Clutter on the chest seems to be a very clear disadvantage, and is mentioned also in the Quest article:
"...chestmounted rebreathers are not without their challenges. They can obstruct access to other equipment, such as drysuit inflators or backup lights..."

It's unclear to me how big this disadvantage is, but it would seem to be progressively worse the more equipment you bring in terms of stages, DPVs etc. Which again might reinforce the idea I've heard repeated many times that CM CCRs are not ideal for deep ocean dives, and that the JJ is. However, I don't know how much of a problem it would be on shallower tech dives with less equipment - but then again, maybe those dives are better suited to OC...?

The immediate problem I see is that the long hose config won't work according to GUE standards with a chest mount rebreather. Next to that, dealing with a standard JJ, multiple stages and a DPV is something you really have to learn and practice. Diving off a boat with a clutterred chest, doubles on your back, DPV and stages for baliout in cold water (thick gloves) is completly something else. This does not disqualify the chest mount rebreathers in any way, I just don't see how it would work with the GUE gold standard as I know it.

I have to agree with PfcAJ, GUE seems to compromise their gold standards OC diving (and RB80) which made them stand out for market share and new untested toys. In my opnion they made the GUE JJ already too complex which increases the chance of failures. Going for a new untested unit with very different config from the gold standard just because it's Halcyon, is something I doubt is wise. But then, who am I to judge.

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[ginti]

Just my opinion: not everybody should dive a rebreather. If you don't understand, how this machine works, you shouldn't use it. If your not able to fix small issues with the machine on your own, don't dive it!

I am not in that group, and am asking just out of curiosity.

How is a person supposed to learn? To me it's normal that people take an introductory class, they go doing easy dives and learn... What's wrong with that?