Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[Mike Boswell]

The only point I am trying to make (which is clearly not getting through) is that there are a lot of medical issues requiring prescription medications which have no bearing on diving nor do they even have the potential to cause issues while diving. They also have no potential to cause liability for a dive operator. So if a person has one of these inconsequential issues, and has been cleared to dive by their doctor, it is none of anyone's business and they should not need to give a positive answer to the question that asks if you take any prescription medication. That question should simply go away, it is too vague.

Lulu, I agree that the prescription drug question is broad. I'm not sure how PADI could fix that without actually listing all the drugs that could have diving consequences. That list might well include seemingly innocuous "acne" remedies because most drugs have side effects that affect our senses, alertness, balance, circulation, and so forth.

It seems to me that the point of the whole exercise is to encourage people to ask their doctors for a medical clearance if there is any question about their fitness to dive, and the Yes/No list just gives you some examples of possible problem areas.

In San Diego we have recently had two fatal incidents involving older ladies who were diving, and these might have been prevented if they had consulted a doctor first. I'd bet those families would tell you that getting a doctor's signoff would have been a small price to pay for having Grandma alive.

Anyway, I'm glad we agree, because if I don't get off this computer my wife will choke me to death.:shocked2:

 

[boulderjohn]

This is a reading comprehension issue.

"The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details."

As you quoted me in your post, I said that the diver would have to disclose the use of prescription medication on his medical form, and that if he answered yes, he would have to provide documentation (any medical statement that a physician signs her name to is "documentation" in a court of law, trust me) from her physician.

But the exact prescription does not have to be disclosed!

I keep telling you over and over and over again that you do not have to identify the prescription medications you are taking to a dive operator, and you keep saying over and over again that you do.

(By the way, I did leave academia before doing my dissertation, so I never completed my Ph.D in English, but I am usually pretty good in reading comprehension. Throwing insults at people is not a good substitute for facts and logic.)

Let's try to make this simple: Can you tell me where the form requires someone to identify the medications he or she is taking?

Now, in case you are going to say you have not been saying that, here are some highlights in which you keep insisting that this information, which should be between a doctor and the patient is required by the form.

I also stated that people with known health conditions, including those which have "no potential to cause a problem" should also have their specialty physician clear them for diving.

RJP, no one is suggesting that divers should not be medically cleared by their doctors to dive, of course they should.

That is not what is being debated here, what is being debated is whether or not divers should always disclose their medical information to the dive op taking them out.

For instance, should a young person who is taking acne medication disclose this on a dive ops' medical form? I can give you a million other examples of medical issues that are irrelevant to diving safety. .

Yep.

Your reading comprehension needs a little work RJP. I never said that it was appropriate for a diver to decide whether or not a condition is relevant, my point was that it should be a physician, not a dive shop employee, who determines this. Disclosure of personal medical information that is not relevant to an untrained person is just silly. They would kick the person taking acne medication off of their charter.


Do you or the dive op really need to know if I take acne medication?

I am being clear, and the position that I am trying to defend is that for conditions not considered at risk conditions on the dive physical, the only person who needs to know that information and clear me to dive is my doctor.

I agree with you that lay people should not make this determination, and that includes not only divers but dive shop employees.

Here again, a reading comprehension issue. I never stated that the young man taking acne medication should not get medical clearance, of course he should,...FROM HIS DOCTOR..His doctor needs to make a judgment about whether or not his medication has any effect of relevance. He should not need to disclose this on a dive shop medical form. The dive physicals highlight the conditions of relevance to diving. Acne is not one of them. Disclosure of completely unrelated medical information about his acne medication to a dive shop is just an unnecessary violation of privacy.

The reading comprehension problem is yours pal, not mine. I will repeat myself, one last time, maybe you will get it this time. The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details. For unrelated conditions like this, it is stupid and unnecessary. Clearing the use of this medication with his doctor is the only requirement he should have. None of the dive shop's business.

The ONLY information that should be provided to a dive shop is that which is related to the at risk conditions on the dive physical.
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[Jane_dives]

I doubt this is the question's purpose and I have a disorder, Asperger's, listed in the DSM-IV, but I certainly do not consider it a mental or psychological illness (I consider it a strength). So what do I put down? I don't want to have to be explaining to an operator about why this doesn't impact on my diving (most people have close to zero knowledge about Asperger's and imagine it to be like Rainman...)..

One of my staff members is also an Aspie. Our store welcomes diversity of all kinds--there is also a legal and ethical obligation to make reasonable accomidations as well as CYA.

 

[sydney-diver]

It seems to me that the point of the whole exercise is to encourage people to ask their doctors for a medical clearance if there is any question about their fitness to dive, and the Yes/No list just gives you some examples of possible problem areas.

Although if that were the case they could simply give you the list to read in private and if you meet any of the conditions you could then return with a medical sign-off otherwise you could simply sign a declaration saying you don't have any of the pre-conditions which might affect your ability to dive. I still don't see what it adds providing the instructor with a yes/no list - it either contains personal information or it doesn't contain enough information to come to any particular conclusions on fitness to dive, I don't see how it's possible to meet in the middle.

 

[vladimir]

(most people have close to zero knowledge about Asperger's and imagine it to be like Rainman...)

No, not Rainman; more like The Girl With the Dragon Tatoo.

 

[Sas]

No, not Rainman; more like The Girl With the Dragon Tatoo.

I have not read it so not sure what the reference is

 

[vladimir]

It's not Dostoevsky, but it's not bad beach reading. The titular character, the girl with the dragon tattoo, has Asperger's syndrome.

 

[Sas]

It's not Dostoevsky, but it's not bad beach reading. The titular character, the girl with the dragon tattoo, has Asperger's syndrome.

Ok I might read it, I'm always interested to see how AS is portrayed It's kind of the in thing these days

 

[boulderjohn]

. I still don't see what it adds providing the instructor with a yes/no list -.

You will see the same thing in many forms of this nature, including the form you sign to show you know that scuba is dangerous. In that case you have to initial each item. You do that in car rental forms when you waive insurance. Many people given such lists to read do not in fact read them, and apparently that argument can stand up in court--you can argue that you did not give informed consent. If you have a NO next to the line about pregnancy, you cannot argue later that you did not know you should not dive when pregnant.

 

[sdiver68]

Clearly, you are not thinking this statement through.

I hate to keep coming back to this, but the potential impact that "liars" might have on other divers goes far beyond "there might be an inconvenience."

As a DM on a dive boat I'm literally willing to put my life in jeopardy to save yours. And unfortunately I'm not speaking "hypothetically" here - I have actually had to risk my life to save someone. I assure you that jumping of the boat with no gear and fighting the current and 4' seas in 50deg water 30mi offshore to retrieve a stranger's lifeless body was more than "an inconvenience."

It was determined after the fact that the victim shouldn't have been doing the dive in question, and they knew it. You want to risk your life doing something you know you shouldn't be doing? Fine. But please have the courtesy to do it alone, by yourself somewhere. If you're gonna do it on a dive boat, at least inform the crew that you have much less regard for your own life than they do. We'll still probably jump in to save your selfish @ss, but at least we'll be making an informed decision.

Please tell me that this part of your post (ideally the entirety of your post) is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at black comedy, and you simply couldn't decide which "smiley" emoticon to include to make that clear.

You have good points from your perspective and I don't care if you accept the truth of my points. The dive medicine advancement point is supported by large amounts of evidence which you can find on the DAN site with further info searchable on google.

The entire point of my post is that the current system is fatally flawed and needs to be revised. This thread is clear evidence of that truth.