Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[lulubelle]

I am sorry you are having a reading comprehension problem. Perhaps I will need to state it as clearly as possible.

You do not have to disclose this condition on the medical form. Nowhere are you required to disclose acne medication to a dive shop.

The reading comprehension problem is yours pal, not mine. I will repeat myself, one last time, maybe you will get it this time. The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details. For unrelated conditions like this, it is stupid and unnecessary. Clearing the use of this medication with his doctor is the only requirement he should have. None of the dive shop's business.

The ONLY information that should be provided to a dive shop is that which is related to the at risk conditions on the dive physical.

The PADI signature line clearly states that the diver is responsible for the consequences of undisclosed medical information. I'm sure that the secret and undeclared use of acne medication will be an acceptable risk for the diver to take if his doctor has given the thumbs up to him, for himself, for the operator.

An op should not want irrelevant medical information, just opens them up for possible exposure. There is a big ruckus going on right now at UNC. A database with 50,000 women's mammogram information was compromised. Going to be some big lawsuits. Less is more when sharing medical information. I wouldn't want unnecessary medical information in my hands if I owned a shop.

 

[RJP]

The PADI signature line clearly states that the diver is responsible for the consequences of undisclosed medical information.

From a "reading comprehension" standpoint, you may have missed the sentence before that one on the form that "clearly states" that the diver filled out the form truthfully.

That is not what is being debated here, what is being debated is whether or not divers should always disclose their medical information to the dive op taking them out.

The ONLY information that should be provided to a dive shop is that which is related to the at risk conditions on the dive physical.

I wouldn't want unnecessary medical information in my hands if I owned a shop.

So...

With the handful of dives you've done in the two years that you've been certified you feel that you've got a better grasp of the medical-legal aspects of the issues around dive medicine, liability exposure, assumption of risk, etc than PADI/NAUI/SSI etc, etc, plus folks like DAN, Witherspoon & Associates, Vicencia & Buckley, Lesser and Associates, etc.

 

[oly5050user]

Please fill out those forms truthfully.
Had 1 student who is 22 years old and he lied on the form.He did not answer correctly for drug/alcohol abuse.
During the last ow training dive he went into convulsions and scared the crap out of me.I had no idea what could have caused this as the dive it self was uneventfull and shallow,less than
40'.There were no rapid ascents or any reason I knew of for this to happen.Well I got him on surface,made him buoyant and started ventilations on way to the boat.Once on the boat treated for shock and put him on oxygen.EMS meet me at the dock and took him to the hospital.Turns out victim tells attending ER doctor that he did cocaine the night before and ALWAYS has convulsions hours after using.DID NOT certify this knucklehead.Oh, and I did not get a tip or even a thankyou from him or his parents.Do you think I should have asked for one???

 

[lulubelle]

From a "reading comprehension" standpoint, you may have missed the sentence before than one on the form that "clearly states" that the diver filled out the form truthfully.





So...

With the handful of dives you've done in the two years that you've been certified you feel that you've got a better grasp of the medical-legal aspects of the issues around dive medicine, liability exposure, assumption of risk, etc than PADI/NAUI/SSI etc, etc, plus folks like DAN, Witherspoon & Associates, Vicencia & Buckley, Lesser and Associates, etc.

The two sentences on PADI's form conflict with each other really, I choose the second.

And yes, I do. This topic has no bearing on the number of dives one has done or not done. And sorry, but I'm not insulted by your jab. It is about the disclosure and management of medical information and the associated liability. I've been carrying medical malpractice insurance since 1987 and know all about medical information, how it is managed, and what the responsibilities and liabilities of both clinical and corporate entities are in this modern world. Also have many a medical friend who works for DAN as I live next door to them.

I don't need you to think that I'm right, so I must go, things to do. Believe as you wish.

 

[Mike Boswell]

The reading comprehension problem is yours pal, not mine. I will repeat myself, one last time, maybe you will get it this time. The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details. For unrelated conditions like this, it is stupid and unnecessary. Clearing the use of this medication with his doctor is the only requirement he should have. None of the dive shop's business.

The ONLY information that should be provided to a dive shop is that which is related to the at risk conditions on the dive physical.

The PADI signature line clearly states that the diver is responsible for the consequences of undisclosed medical information. I'm sure that the secret and undeclared use of acne medication will be an acceptable risk for the diver to take if his doctor has given the thumbs up to him, for himself, for the operator.

An op should not want irrelevant medical information, just opens them up for possible exposure. There is a big ruckus going on right now at UNC. A database with 50,000 women's mammogram information was compromised. Going to be some big lawsuits. Less is more when sharing medical information. I wouldn't want unnecessary medical information in my hands if I owned a shop.

If you owned a dive shop, I would hope that you would be aware that pre-existing physical and medical conditions are a major issue in scuba injuries and fatalities. Please read the bottom of Page 7 of the DAN 2008 Report:

https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/report/2008DANDivingReport.pdf

It's not about acne, Lulu.

 

[boulderjohn]

The reading comprehension problem is yours pal, not mine. I will repeat myself, one last time, maybe you will get it this time. The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details. :

This is borderline bizarre.

You said that a hypothetical teenage must tell a dive operator that he is taking acne medication.

The form does not require that specific disclosure, and I asked you for the specific language in which it did. You have not provided that.

Now you say it requires "documentation from from his doctor."

It does not. It only requires a signature from the doctor. The doctor does not have to disclose or document a blessed thing.

Then you add "albeit not with the particular details." By that do you mean that the doctor does not have to provide the student's condition or medication? If so, you are contradicting yourself.

 

[RJP]

Also have many a medical friend who works for DAN as I live next door to them.

Oh, well why didn't you SAY you have friends who work for DAN? In fact, as a basis for establishing your credibility and expertise I'd say that's nearly as good as having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

 

[lulubelle]

If you owned a dive shop, I would hope that you would be aware that pre-existing physical and medical conditions are a major issue in scuba injuries and fatalities. Please read the bottom of Page 7 of the DAN 2008 Report:

https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/report/2008DANDivingReport.pdf

It's not about acne, Lulu.

Yes I know it is not. I understand where you are coming from Mike. I have clearly stated that pre-existing conditions which are related to diving safety, which are spelled out on the diving physical and medical forms, should be disclosed and cleared by a physician.

I used acne as one of millions of issues which can require prescription medication which if disclosed could cause a diver not to dive if they are presented with a medical form which they did not know was going to be required for their dive and do not have the ability to get the proper signature from their doctor prior to their dive.

The only point I am trying to make (which is clearly not getting through) is that there are a lot of medical issues requiring prescription medications which have no bearing on diving nor do they even have the potential to cause issues while diving. They also have no potential to cause liability for a dive operator. So if a person has one of these inconsequential issues, and has been cleared to dive by their doctor, it is none of anyone's business and they should not need to give a positive answer to the question that asks if you take any prescription medication. That question should simply go away, it is too vague. The other questions, which are specific to medical issues known to have possible impact on diving safety, should be on the questionnaires, should be answered truthfully, and should be cleared by a diving doc if there are any positive answers.

I'm quite a fan of keeping divers safe. Our diving is pretty advanced in the recreational sector here in NC. Plenty of people die here, most because of stupidity, some from medical issues. But forcing people to check "yes" to the prescription medication question, when they have an issue which is inconsequential to all, is just plan silly and a PITA for all. It adds nothing to either the divers safety or to the operator's liability.

 

[lulubelle]

This is borderline bizarre.

You said that a hypothetical teenage must tell a dive operator that he is taking acne medication.

The form does not require that specific disclosure, and I asked you for the specific language in which it did. You have not provided that.

Now you say it requires "documentation from from his doctor."

It does not. It only requires a signature from the doctor. The doctor does not have to disclose or document a blessed thing.

Then you add "albeit not with the particular details." By that do you mean that the doctor does not have to provide the student's condition or medication? If so, you are contradicting yourself.

This is a reading comprehension issue.

"The diver is asked to disclose the use of prescription medications on the form. That will require him to submit documentation from his doctor, albeit not with the particular details."

As you quoted me in your post, I said that the diver would have to disclose the use of prescription medication on his medical form, and that if he answered yes, he would have to provide documentation (any medical statement that a physician signs her name to is "documentation" in a court of law, trust me) from her physician.

 

[sydney-diver]

The PADI medical form has multiple pages, the first contains the facility and instructors name, the second the physician’s impression. Is there any reason why I cannot get my physician to fill out page 2 and then provide a copy to any LDS (i.e. if I do a course at a different facility, or with a different instructor?). Having to provide an original physician’s impression for every course taken seems silly but if you take the PADI medical on face value as a total document that's what it implies?

Dave