Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[Mike Boswell]

OK I am really confused; are there dive boats that have customers fill out the PADI or SSI forms (as posted by Mike Boswell) for a trip?

Although most of my diving is done from private vessels I have been diving a long time and have never run across such a thing. I very rarely have been asked to show a card...

When my wife and I have taken PADI training classes or join local commercial boat dives we have had to fill out forms similar to the ones I posted, which ask you to respond (Yes or No) to a list of medical questions. When we recently visited Bonaire (Buddy Dive), we were also asked to fill out similar forms.

Personally, I am not thrilled about filling out forms, but as a small business owner I realize that businesses have legal, ethical, and insurance requirements that need to be met. If I operated a commercial dive boat, I don't think your sixty dollar payment for a one-tank dive would be sufficient to offset the risk that I could be sued for millions because I failed to ascertain whether you were fit to dive.

For those who have health issues and are required to produce a doctor's authorization to participate in a class or a group dive, I think this inconvenience is justified as a wise precaution in any active sport, and more so in scuba because more people could be involved in any incident.

Regarding medical privacy issues, I agree that this is a good point and needs to be addressed. However, I would point out that no one is forced to fill out a form or join a class or sign up for a group dive, and that lying is not a solution to privacy rights, and that your privacy rights do not include the right to put others unknowingly at risk.

As to those who bemoan "our litigious society" I can only opine that if everyone was honest we would need a lot less litigation.

 

[Mike Boswell]

OK I am really confused; are there dive boats that have customers fill out the PADI or SSI forms (as posted by Mike Boswell) for a trip?

Although most of my diving is done from private vessels I have been diving a long time and have never run across such a thing. I very rarely have been asked to show a card...

Maybe this form (from Buddy Dive on Bonaire that I was asked to fill out - and did - on Jan 23, 2010) will help, or maybe it will add to your confusion.

http://www.buddydive.com/images/downloads/DivingLiabilityRelease.pdf

 

[sdiver68]

The last line of the PADI form states:

I agree to accept responsibility for omissions regarding my failure to disclose any existing or past health condition

Clearly, there are no consequences to omitting information other than putting your own well being on the line. OK, I'll accept that there might be an inconvenience to other divers if you'll accept that many "liars" have actually advanced the medical body of knowledge surrounding diving.

The problem here is 1 of liability, not health or medicine. OK, so let's say we go with the Dr sign off approach. All that does is shift potential liability to a Dr! Why would I as a Dr. accept that liability? (hypothetically, I'm not a Dr!)

Perhaps this situation could be rectified with a voluntary dual legal and medical approach. The existing form in turned in, and a second sealed form with more complete medical history is also filled out and turned in. This second form can only be unsealed in case of emergency or is otherwise given back to the person after the activity. I could even see an organization such as DAN offering this service with some type of call in, PIN based approach.

 

[lulubelle]

Now that I have pointed that out, you have backtracked and said that you don't think that the kid should need medical clearance. Yet, your earlier posts said that he should.
If the kid is getting prescription medicines, then he must be under the care of a doctor. That doctor will know all about the condition already. In that case, all it will take is to send the form to the doctor and have him sign it. I just traveled to receive instruction. Anticipating that I would need the form, I had my doctor sign it, and I brought a copy. I made several copies in case I have future needs.

Here again, a reading comprehension issue. I never stated that the young man taking acne medication should not get medical clearance, of course he should,...FROM HIS DOCTOR..His doctor needs to make a judgment about whether or not his medication has any effect of relevance. He should not need to disclose this on a dive shop medical form. The dive physicals highlight the conditions of relevance to diving. Acne is not one of them. Disclosure of completely unrelated medical information about his acne medication to a dive shop is just an unnecessary violation of privacy.

Goodbye all, have fun with your debate.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here again, a reading comprehension issue. I never stated that the young man taking acne medication should not get medical clearance, of course he should,...FROM HIS DOCTOR..His doctor needs to make a judgment about whether or not his medication has any effect of relevance. He should not need to disclose this on a dive shop medical form. The dive physicals highlight the conditions of relevance to diving. Acne is not one of them. Disclosure of completely unrelated medical information about his acne medication to a dive shop is just an unnecessary violation of privacy.

Goodbye all, have fun with your debate.

I am sorry you are having a reading comprehension problem. Perhaps I will need to state it as clearly as possible.

You do not have to disclose this condition on the medical form. Nowhere are you required to disclose acne medication to a dive shop.

 

[AfterDark]

I read this entire thread. My conclusion is simply to continue to dive on my own. In 30 years and well over 1500 dives I've been on only 5 charters and that was long enough ago that no forms were required. All my other dives consists of rock hops, kayak, or friends boats. IMO they can take their charters, forms, specialty c-cards and stick 'em. I don't need 'em and am glad I don't.

 

[RJP]

Clearly, there are no consequences to omitting information other than putting your own well being on the line. I'll accept that there might be an inconvenience to other divers...

Clearly, you are not thinking this statement through.

I hate to keep coming back to this, but the potential impact that "liars" might have on other divers goes far beyond "there might be an inconvenience."

As a DM on a dive boat I'm literally willing to put my life in jeopardy to save yours. And unfortunately I'm not speaking "hypothetically" here - I have actually had to risk my life to save someone. I assure you that jumping of the boat with no gear and fighting the current and 4' seas in 50deg water 30mi offshore to retrieve a stranger's lifeless body was more than "an inconvenience."

It was determined after the fact that the victim shouldn't have been doing the dive in question, and they knew it. You want to risk your life doing something you know you shouldn't be doing? Fine. But please have the courtesy to do it alone, by yourself somewhere. If you're gonna do it on a dive boat, at least inform the crew that you have much less regard for your own life than they do. We'll still probably jump in to save your selfish @ss, but at least we'll be making an informed decision.

...if you'll accept that many "liars" have actually advanced the medical body of knowledge surrounding diving.

Please tell me that this part of your post (ideally the entirety of your post) is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at black comedy, and you simply couldn't decide which "smiley" emoticon to include to make that clear.

 

[adurso]

Maybe this form (from Buddy Dive on Bonaire that I was asked to fill out - and did - on Jan 23, 2010) will help, or maybe it will add to your confusion.

http://www.buddydive.com/images/downloads/DivingLiabilityRelease.pdf

Thanks. This one is a strict liability release. The others are for training. RJP posted that some operators in Cozumel are requiring med forms...how very interesting

Does Buddy Dive require this for only tanks?

 

[Mike Boswell]

The last line of the PADI form states:

I agree to accept responsibility for omissions regarding my failure to disclose any existing or past health condition

Clearly, there are no consequences to omitting information other than putting your own well being on the line. OK, I'll accept that there might be an inconvenience to other divers if you'll accept that many "liars" have actually advanced the medical body of knowledge surrounding diving.

The problem here is 1 of liability, not health or medicine. OK, so let's say we go with the Dr sign off approach. All that does is shift potential liability to a Dr! Why would I as a Dr. accept that liability? (hypothetically, I'm not a Dr!)

Perhaps this situation could be rectified with a voluntary dual legal and medical approach. The existing form in turned in, and a second sealed form with more complete medical history is also filled out and turned in. This second form can only be unsealed in case of emergency or is otherwise given back to the person after the activity. I could even see an organization such as DAN offering this service with some type of call in, PIN based approach.

First, any dive incident or accident has potentially grave consequences to dive businesses, their staff, and their other customers. Other consequences might be that if you do have a legitimate complaint but have lied on your disclosure form, you are SOL.

Second, doctors "sign off" on these kinds of things pretty routinely - maybe one of them could enlighten us as to their liability.

Third, the form also serves as a means of disclosure - to make divers aware of certain hazards. Not all persons with a C card are aware that certain physical or medical conditions - pregnancy, diabetes, etc. - might pose a problem while diving.

Last, the form helps to protect other divers who have invested significant amounts of time and money and do not need it all spoiled by someone who hasn't taken their own health and fitness issues seriously.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Thanks. This one is a strict liability release. The others are for training. RJP posted that some operators in Cozumel are requiring med forms...how very interesting

Does Buddy Dive require this for only tanks?

Buddy requires this (and other things) at check-in.

Save time on check in