This morning in Egypt ...

[cmas3]

@Dan
But there should be an access to the cabins from the bow of the ship. The fire was in the stern of the ship.

 

[scubadada]

I was doing some reading today. The Red Sea has a huge number of registered liveaboards. I tried to read about liveaboard accidents but the information is difficult to find. I found 9 Red Sea accidents, fire, ran aground, capsized. I was hoping to find a database on liveaboard accidents around the world, but found nothing.

What time frame did those accidents cover?

I believe it was from 2014 on, maybe one earlier

Hi @azstinger11

I actually found 8 Red Sea accidents between 2004 and 2023, I counted one, twice. The information was not always easy to find and I would not take as absolutely correct. Others may know of additional incidents or details

 

[Dan]

@Dan
But there should be an access to the cabins from the bow of the ship. The fire was in the stern of the ship.

Perhaps the DMs got there too late or having a hard time to get to the gate from the bow due to the situations mentioned in the previous posts (things blocking the door for example). They need to interview the DMs in more detail to what’s happening to all of the divers. After all they are dive guides.

 

[DrMack]

In the video it appears that there is smoke coming from the bow which is possibly from a forward hatch. The three passengers who perished may have been incapacitated or even killed by toxic combustion gases before they could egress.

 

[Mike Walker]

The marginal cost to add a handful of very loud alarm bells and trigger buttons in key locations in the cost of a new boat build would be utterly trivial. It doesn't even have to meet any particular code, it just has to make noise to save a lot of lives. Dive guides running down to alert passengers simply should not ever have to happen - the moment anyone sees smoke they should be no more than 10 seconds away from a button that makes a very loud 'wake up and get out now' sound in every compartment of the boat.

There's plenty of other low-cost/no-cost actions that could vastly improve the odds of survival for everyone on board.

Given the cost of labour in Egypt even adding a nominal fee for someone knowledgable and skilled to do a detailed safety inspection and a bit of safety system related maintenance of EVERY boat EVERY time it hits port would be trivial - 20EUR per passenger. Smoke alarm checks; compressor air quality checks; safety provision inventory, etc. Imagine how few issues there would be if things were getting checked by an independent set of eyes every single week. Create some jobs, save some lives, increase tourist dollar inflows by running a respectable industry. No doubt CDWS is reading this. Get on it.

The only real solution to this is boat owners - not captains, not engineers, not crew, not managers, not booking agencies - but boat *owners* being criminally liable for the happenings on their property and going to jail for manslaughter when their poor cost-saving decisions kill passengers or staff. Some boat designers need to be held to account as well - the 'Egyptian way' of building boats has a lot of flaws.

Right now I think long and hard before even considering a booking that doesn't give me direct exterior access from my cabin. I've been on the edge about returning to Egypt (after 3 previous trips) but I think I'm about to cross it off permanently on a risk/reward basis.

 

[Alekseolsen]

The marginal cost to add a handful of very loud alarm bells and trigger buttons in key locations in the cost of a new boat build would be utterly trivial. It doesn't even have to meet any particular code, it just has to make noise to save a lot of lives. Dive guides running down to alert passengers simply should not ever have to happen - the moment anyone sees smoke they should be no more than 10 seconds away from a button that makes a very loud 'wake up and get out now' sound in every compartment of the boat.

There's plenty of other low-cost/no-cost actions that could vastly improve the odds of survival for everyone on board.

Given the cost of labour in Egypt even adding a nominal fee for someone knowledgable and skilled to do a detailed safety inspection and a bit of safety system related maintenance of EVERY boat EVERY time it hits port would be trivial - 20EUR per passenger. Smoke alarm checks; compressor air quality checks; safety provision inventory, etc. Imagine how few issues there would be if things were getting checked by an independent set of eyes every single week. Create some jobs, save some lives, increase tourist dollar inflows by running a respectable industry. No doubt CDWS is reading this. Get on it.

The only real solution to this is boat owners - not captains, not engineers, not crew, not managers, not booking agencies - but boat *owners* being criminally liable for the happenings on their property and going to jail for manslaughter when their poor cost-saving decisions kill passengers or staff. Some boat designers need to be held to account as well - the 'Egyptian way' of building boats has a lot of flaws.

Right now I think long and hard before even considering a booking that doesn't give me direct exterior access from my cabin. I've been on the edge about returning to Egypt (after 3 previous trips) but I think I'm about to cross it off permanently on a risk/reward basis.

Having, if not worked in Egypt, been for work in Egypt numerous times, I'm afraid such an easy, straightforward, arrangement like this would be detailed within days. The tech checking would be forced to bring a bunch of "officials" with him - and the boat would not be approved without money changing hands. Not "bribe amount", but the typical Baksheesh is expected, and I've honestly been afraid when people I've disembarked with have refused to pay such money.

 

[Mike Walker]

Having, if not worked in Egypt, been for work in Egypt numerous times, I'm afraid such an easy, straightforward, arrangement like this would be detailed within days. The tech checking would be forced to bring a bunch of "officials" with him - and the boat would not be approved without money changing hands. Not "bribe amount", but the typical Baksheesh is expected, and I've honestly been afraid when people I've disembarked with have refused to pay such money.

That's certainly a bigger issue Egypt needs to fix.

But, honestly, with 350-500EUR collected per trip - I'm sure they could find a way to spread that around and still have a reasonably competent guy spend a few hours on the boat actually checking/fixing things.

They seem to have managed to wrangle nearly everyone into line with regards to tank maintenance (logging, hydro, etc.) and a few other dive related regulations - so it is possible to get things done there.

 

[berndo]

Some boat designers need to be held to account as well - the 'Egyptian way' of building boats has a lot of flaws.

And how is this supposed to happen?
In Egypt and many other poor countries, the people have many bigger problems than boat design to please western tourists.
Many egyptians (including the ones that work on dive boats) have hardly any access to education, health care and many other things most Canadians or Europeans think of as 'normal'. I reckon, what you're asking for isn't very high on their list of problems that need fixing... nor should it be.
When you're traveling to a poor country, odd are, it's less safe than in what you're used to. It is what it is.

No doubt CDWS is reading this. Get on it.

Why would they read posts on Scubaboard?

 

[Mike Walker]

And how is this supposed to happen?
In Egypt and many other poor countries, the people have many bigger problems than boat design to please western tourists.
Many egyptians (including the ones that work on dive boats) have hardly any access to education, health care and many other things most Canadians or Europeans think of as 'normal'. I reckon, what you're asking for isn't very high on their list of problems that need fixing... nor should it be.
When you're traveling to a poor country, odd are, it's less safe than in what you're used to. It is what it is.


Why would they read posts on Scubaboard?

You're essentially saying 'poor is poor' and that they are too stupid to do anything about it which is a horrible, foolish attitude. There are problems, but they are fixable and there are most certainly some involved in the industry there with the smarts and vision to improve things. You don't think CDWS and their membership don't occasionally glance at the biggest pool of free dive related market research in existence? You don't think the marketing agencies selling these boats don't point to these Scubaboard threads when communicating with their operators and suggest that killing the customers is bad for business?

Firstly - if you want my money, you provide a product I'm willing to pay for. Tourism is about all that Egypt has left to sell, it is in their interest to do things that maximize foreign dollars coming in and part of that is providing an adequate level of safety. Dialling the blatant corruption back a bit would help too. While not everybody's priorities are the same - with these boat fires hitting major news outlets more and more 'not die in a fire' is certainly being added to many travellers vacation to-do lists.

Secondly - Egyptian boats (in general - though there are a few exceptions) tend to sell this ridiculous 'luxury everything'. Shiny, big, tall, 5-star, etc. They spend all their money on glitz and glamour rather safety and practicality. I'm in no way demanding more money be spent - I'm simply stating that they could spend the money they do spend in much smarter ways. Why does every boat seem to have a hot tub that no one uses? Couches that look good but are terribly uncomfortable to sit it. Colour changing feature lighting and sound systems that never get turned on. That money could have gone to fire monitoring/suppression/alerting or similar. There are many boats operating in other countries with similar economic conditions that put far more emphasis on safety even if it is at the expense of 'fancy'.

And lets not forget that much of the 'ownership' where the root of the blame sits is not necessarily Egyptian and certainly not poor. The money to do things right is there - it just needs to be redirected to prioritize safety over shiny.

Things can be better and a defeatist 'it is what it is' attitude is offensive.

But yes, the purchasers also need to stop expecting week-long all-inclusive luxury cruises for 1000EUR. The European/British package vacation market is certainly responsible in no small part for accepting and promoting substandard operations. The distance between buyer and actual operator/owner creates too much wiggle room when things go wrong. But that is a dive industry problem, not an Egypt problem.

 

[Sebs]

That's certainly a bigger issue Egypt needs to fix.

But, honestly, with 350-500EUR collected per trip - I'm sure they could find a way to spread that around and still have a reasonably competent guy spend a few hours on the boat actually checking/fixing things.

They seem to have managed to wrangle nearly everyone into line with regards to tank maintenance (logging, hydro, etc.) and a few other dive related regulations - so it is possible to get things done there.

I'm just wondering but have you been to Egypt before?