This morning in Egypt ...

[Mike Walker]

The version with compressed air requires a full function check by a Drager-certified technician every 12 months, and the replacement of the pressure reducer every ten years (Drager says overhaul it every 10 years but it is actually cheaper just to replace it). Either the filter cartridge version or the compressed air version is I think a good start. Servicing for the compressed air version would need to be established in the Red Sea as Drager don't have an office themselves in Egypt, and their reps are based in the Cairo and Alexandria areas.

I'm sure there are a few guides who would be more than happy to get certified and make a few extra dollars on their days off. A handful of people could take care of the region. It's $750 to buy and let's call it $50/year for function tests ($1250/10 years/30 sailings per year = $4 per passenger sailing). Cut that in half again if half your cabins are direct exit and don't need them.

What sort of idiot would quibble over an extra $5 on their vacation package if they knew they were going on the boat with a viable escape plan. Round that up to $25 and you have plenty of budget for a basic alarm/alerting system, some degree of fire extinguishment and regular testing.

I guess the obvious question is would there be enough demand from North America for a Nautilus-style/priced operation in the Red Sea? Especially given that it would be up against the cheaper Red Sea Aggressor operation?

Red Sea Aggressor is NOT a premium operation unless it's changed greatly since I was onboard.

Royal Evolution already was/is pretty close to Nautilus in cost and, other than the Sudan situation, they were operating successfully for years. After the fuel surcharges it might have even been more per night than Nautilus... thinking back.... The Sudan situation is a problem, but that's outside of this conversation. Part of my decision to return to RS and go with them despite the negative RSA1 experience and high cost was having a half decent website that highlighted their safety efforts. It's not a guarantee that systems are well maintained, but at least it showed they were thinking about it.

There's a contingent of North Americans ready and willing to spend on a premium product if managed and marketed correctly, particularly if they can work in some other 'Egypt' activities to help offset the flight cost. But, when all the news stories are of boats on fire, that market shrinks back into its shell. An operation that can build a solid reputation for safety, reliability and insulating from the corruption and 'bakshesh' BS could do well.

 

[Wookie]

Having been a professional mariner for 35 years, I’m here to say that even the navy doesn’t put SCBAs in every berthing (or any berthing) space. They are in the repair lockers. Each rack has an EEBD. Anyone can learn to use the EEBD in a 10 minute dive boat safety briefing. Qualifying on a 30 lb SCBA takes a day. It isn’t even a question of which to use in my mind.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

Red Sea Aggressor is NOT a premium operation unless it's changed greatly since I was onboard.

Royal Evolution already was/is pretty close to Nautilus in cost and, other than the Sudan situation, they were operating successfully for years. After the fuel surcharges it might have even been more per night than Nautilus... thinking back.... The Sudan situation is a problem, but that's outside of this conversation. Part of my decision to return to RS and go with them despite the negative RSA1 experience and high cost was having a half decent website that highlighted their safety efforts. It's not a guarantee that systems are well maintained, but at least it showed they were thinking about it.

There's a contingent of North Americans ready and willing to spend on a premium product if managed and marketed correctly, particularly if they can work in some other 'Egypt' activities to help offset the flight cost. But, when all the news stories are of boats on fire, that market shrinks back into its shell. An operation that can build a solid reputation for safety, reliability and insulating from the corruption and 'bakshesh' BS could do well.

I wasn't saying that the Red Sea Aggressor is a premium operation, was just thinking that it as an Aggressor boat is competing in the U.S. market too - obviously at a cheaper price than what a Nautilus-type boat would be marketed at.

I agree with a trip adding in some land attractions of Egypt as well. I'm thinking something like a two week trip -
- Saturday - Fly U.S. to Cairo - which would probably mean landing sometime on Sunday
- Sunday - guests individually met at Cairo airport and transferred by car to Cairo hotel - overnight Sunday in Cairo hotel
- Monday - transfer all guests to Hurghada by luxury bus and board vessel - safety briefings, welcome dinner etc
- Tuesday - clear customs and set sail then checkout dive and onwards
- Wednesday to following Monday - diving - dock vessel at Hurghada marina on Monday evening
- Tuesday morning - guests depart vessel after breakfast, bus transfer to Luxor - Valley of the Kings in the afternoon (new guests board mid-late afternoon)
- Wednesday - Karnak Temple etc etc. - overnight Luxor
- Thursday - sunrise hot air balloon flight, then luxury bus transfer to Cairo - try to find an interesting route that takes in a lot of everyday life along the Nile rather than MMFD
- Friday - Pyramids and Museums, Khan el Khalili in the evening
- Saturday morning - check in for flights back to the U.S.

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[John Bantin]

And how is this supposed to happen?
In Egypt and many other poor countries, the people have many bigger problems than boat design to please western tourists.
Many egyptians (including the ones that work on dive boats) have hardly any access to education, health care and many other things most Canadians or Europeans think of as 'normal'. I reckon, what you're asking for isn't very high on their list of problems that need fixing... nor should it be.
When you're traveling to a poor country, odd are, it's less safe than in what you're used to. It is what it is.


Why would they read posts on Scubaboard?

There are plenty of very rich people in Egypt. No poor people own these boats or Nile river cruisers.

 

[John Bantin]

The average cost of a 7-day trip on a liveaboard, all-in including flight from Europe, is around $2000.
I worked on a British-run liveaboard in the Red Sea in 1992 when the daily cost per pax was $120. Then the Egyptians entered the market (around 1994) at $60 per pax per day.

 

[John Bantin]

A short piece from Undercurrent today indicates that Hurricane was the first boat in what seems to be a well-regarded Red Sea fleet. “The steel-hulled vessel, which carried oxygen tanks to support CCR divers, has been a favorite with British divers for more than two decades.” So, not a late entrant, and doubtless well regarded—this must hit the British dive community especially hard.

I can’t understand why there wasn’t fixed and automatic fire suppression which would put out a worst-case engine-room fire, but electrical fires are terrible. Surely the alarms went off promptly; but there are plenty of survivors to say what happened. The engine-room equipment must be vapor, though.

This casualty, so far as is reported, doesn’t involve sleeping watchmen, batteries in cabins or vessels running aground. But a fire below decks could turn the companionway above the waterline into a chimney. Aren’t there robust fire suppression systems for small raft engine rooms? An hour earlier the dive briefing would not have been underway, and many people would have been asleep.

It‘s tempting to think of liveaboards as floating resorts rather than small ships, often operating in remote waters, upon the integrity and operation of which passengers heavily depend. The industry doesn’t do much to dispel that notion. Thanks to Scubaboard for providing and moderating this forum—there are things to be learned from every casualty, although this one feels like a horrible accident so far.

I haven't been on Hurricane for ten years, but its engine room always had an inert gas fire-suppression system. Did it need maintenance?

 

[John Bantin]

Fraser did indeed sink - I can't remember what year but vaguely recall that it hit a reef somewhere near Sharm from memory.

Can you the layout of the Hurricane as far as possible escape routes to get from the below deck cabins to safety?

At Beacon Rock.

 

[Mike Walker]

I wasn't saying that the Red Sea Aggressor is a premium operation, was just thinking that it as an Aggressor boat is competing in the U.S. market too - obviously at a cheaper price than what a Nautilus-type boat would be marketed at.

I agree with a trip adding in some land attractions of Egypt as well. I'm thinking something like a two week trip -
- Saturday - Fly U.S. to Cairo - which would probably mean landing sometime on Sunday
- Sunday - guests individually met at Cairo airport and transferred by car to Cairo hotel - overnight Sunday in Cairo hotel
- Monday - transfer all guests to Hurghada by luxury bus and board vessel - safety briefings, welcome dinner etc
- Tuesday - clear customs and set sail then checkout dive and onwards
- Wednesday to following Monday - diving - dock vessel at Hurghada marina on Monday evening
- Tuesday morning - guests depart vessel after breakfast, bus transfer to Luxor - Valley of the Kings in the afternoon (new guests board mid-late afternoon)
- Wednesday - Karnak Temple etc etc. - overnight Luxor
- Thursday - sunrise hot air balloon flight, then luxury bus transfer to Cairo - try to find an interesting route that takes in a lot of everyday life along the Nile rather than MMFD
- Friday - Pyramids and Museums, Khan el Khalili in the evening
- Saturday morning - check in for flights back to the U.S.

Does that sound reasonable?

I'm not even sure if you'd need to package it up in the same way for a North American audience.... or if you even could. Flights are a real wild-card and you're pretty much stuck with regularly scheduled routes -- no dive op is filling even a narrowbody and there aren't explicit 'vacation' flights to Egypt. That being said, there are some very cost and time efficient routes via Turkish form NA hubs even direct to HRG/RMF via IST. Given Turkish's growth plans there may be some partnership opportunities there...

I'd suggest the target audience would be different - people with flexible schedules, more money to spend and more engagement on making their own adventure.

I think Aggressor handles this by offering their 'river tours' as an optional add on - before, after or not at all - your choice. You could do other similar things purely on land (with the ideas you've listed) - make it predictable and packaged unto itself but not part of being herded around everywhere in a bus. A single-point-of-contact marketing agency that can guarantee minimum standards and be a number to call if there are issues is probably enough, but a step short of the rigid packages that are done for EU/Brits with flights, hotels and everything else baked in.

I certainly can't speak for everyone in NA - but my expectations for a 'dive package' typically start at the boat and end at the boat - maybe with a taxi to/from a local hotel thrown in. Whereas I get the feeling the typical structure for EU/Brit groups in RS seems to be the hand-holding starts at their home airport and the schedules are built around 'only one week off work' (Comparable to generic Caribbean vacation packages in NA - but not so typical for dive-focussed travel).

I think there's a middle ground where an agency could offer a curated and reliable chain of suppliers but in a flexible pick-and-choose manner allowing accommodation of arbitrary arrival and departure dates as well as trip length.

 

[John Bantin]

I went on the maiden voyage of Peter Hughes' Moon Dancer. I told him the Egyptians would break his heart. They did. He never forgave me!

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

I went on the maiden voyage of Peter Hughes' Moon Dancer. I told him the Egyptians would break his heart. They did. He never forgave me!

JB - you've been around the Red Sea since about the same time that I started there - what are your thoughts on the current accident/incident rate amongst liveaboards?