This morning in Egypt ...

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Nick_Radov:
After the Conception fire, the Coast Guard issued additional safety rules for live aboard dive boats operating in US waters. But older boats built before 1996 still aren't required to install fixed fire suppression systems in the engine room; only portable extinguishers are required. Prospective passengers might want to check how old the boat is, and ask the boat operator whether they meet the Coast Guard minimum or have additional fixed fire suppression systems.


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Many thanks Nick - I'm in a different jurisdiction outside the U.S. so I'm not totally familiar with the details like dates, legacy and grandfather rules etc - you have provided some good information there.

One of the issues I see with fitting fire suppression on a liveaboard is that simple systems like a big CO2 dump won't necessarily work in places like the galley, charging stations etc as they aren't enclosed, and stopping lithium battery fires is quite difficult.
 
Mike Walker:
But that's my point - and I even say this above. Fires happen, boats sink... buildings burn down on land. What isn't acceptable is that on a relatively small dive boat where the exit path is no more than 10m that the industry hasn't implemented *on every single boat* a reliable way to detect a problem and start an alarm to make sure everyone is awake and moving towards that exit (or a redundant one) before fire spread makes it impossible.

It's at the point with these boat fires and other incidents that your first thought is 'who was sleeping in their cabins' because we all know that is where the deaths happen. It's happened over and over again. Yet we still have numerous boats with no way to communicate with the cabins other than a person running down and knocking on the door. This is ridiculous.



Escape Hood - thanks, that was the term I was looking for. And yes - what Nautilus has is escape hoods albeit with an air supply judging by the weight (i didn't open it up).

And the Drager ones you link to are dirt cheap. $400 for 8 years of service. That's less than $2 per passenger trip. Why are these not on every boat?

Edit: Pretty sure these are the ones Nautilus has https://www.draeger.com/Products/Content/saver-cf-n-niosh-pi-9045402-en-us.pdf which is in between.

But really - anything that provides 20-30 seconds of heat protection, vision and air would be massively beneficial here - even if hacked together from what's available. I've certainly considered taking my pony and spare mask to my cabin - and my shoes always live beside my bed. I shouldn't have to be worrying about that. There seems to be completely affordable solutions from safety equipment manufacturers - absolutely no excuse not to have one in every cabin that lacks direct access to the outside.
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Is that the Nautilus liveaboard that operates in Socorro?

I think the simple escape hood without air supply would be the better option - less training, less maintenance, less checks required.
 
I looked into the liveaboard situation in the Red Sea. in sorting through the options, I didn’t see anything that stood out in terms of quality. basically the low prices scared me off. It’s a race to the bottom.
Coming from the US, it’s not a cheap easy getaway that it is for Europeans.
There is definitely a market for people who are willing to pay for a night watchman, proper egress and other known safety standards.
 
RedSeaDiver2:
Is that the Nautilus liveaboard that operates in Socorro?

I think the simple escape hood without air supply would be the better option - less training, less maintenance, less checks required.
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Yeah - that Nautilus (they are up to 4 boats on a variety of routes). I don't disagree on the simpler solution (I learned a whole bunch about the possibilities this morning via google) but, on the other hand, if you can fill the bottles on board the lifespan of those ones seems essentially infinite instead of staying on top of cartridge shelf life. I do seem to recall they included donning them in their safety briefing but it's pretty self explanatory. They were just starting to roll them out and this was pretty much the second trip back out mid-COVID so there were a lot of moving parts.

But, one way or another: This was a liveaboard operation operating in Mexico (albeit Canadian managed) that said 'we can do things safer, charge more for the privilege, and still make money'. And I'm pretty sure they are. They were one of the first back out during COVID as well, took some risks, jumped throught he logistical hoops and - looking at their schedule - seem to be very solidly booked despite adding more and more boats (and onshore options) over the last 3 years. We'll give it a couple years to settle - but this looks like a success story to me.

Jackie:
I looked into the liveaboard situation in the Red Sea. in sorting through the options, I didn’t see anything that stood out in terms of quality. basically the low prices scared me off. It’s a race to the bottom.
Coming from the US, it’s not a cheap easy getaway that it is for Europeans.
There is definitely a market for people who are willing to pay for a night watchman, proper egress and other known safety standards.
Click to expand...

That definitely popped up in the conversations I had in Egypt. North American expectations for costs are far higher than European and British. This is part of why I was a bit critical in my earlier posts. Because Red Sea is a 'vacation package' destination for EU/Brits much of the business is similar to the discount Mexican All-Inclusives we see over here - but much, much worse so far as squeezing an unreasonable amount of 'luxury' out of a very limited budget.

The Nautilus boats mentioned above are 2 to 3 times the cost of even a high-end Egyptian boat. Even the cheap Caribbean offerings are 50% more, at least. For the cost of an Egyptian boat in NA you are getting Blackbeards which is reasonable at that price-point, but hardly luxury.

More problematic is that some of the 'known to be good' Red Sea operations were destroyed during COVID such that the brand may still be around but they quality (and associated safety) simply isn't there. There are a few good ones but it will take some time to rebuild and, hopefully, they can rebuild better. But for that to happen the bad operators have to fail - ideally in a business sense only and not in a literal sense with guests onboard.
 
RedSeaDiver2:
One of the issues I see with fitting fire suppression on a liveaboard is that simple systems like a big CO2 dump won't necessarily work in places like the galley, charging stations etc as they aren't enclosed, and stopping lithium battery fires is quite difficult.
Click to expand...

Yes, lithium batteries are a growing fire risk with all of the devices that divers carry now. The US Coast Guard has published guidance on storage and charging to minimize fire risk. Those are worth reading and following but I think they are just recommendations rather than rules, and obviously they don't have any force in other countries.

 
Mike Walker:
Yeah - that Nautilus (they are up to 4 boats on a variety of routes). I don't disagree on the simpler solution (I learned a whole bunch about the possibilities this morning via google) but, on the other hand, if you can fill the bottles on board the lifespan of those ones seems essentially infinite instead of staying on top of cartridge shelf life. I do seem to recall they included donning them in their safety briefing but it's pretty self explanatory. They were just starting to roll them out and this was pretty much the second trip back out mid-COVID so there were a lot of moving parts.

But, one way or another: This was a liveaboard operation operating in Mexico (albeit Canadian managed) that said 'we can do things safer, charge more for the privilege, and still make money'. And I'm pretty sure they are. They were one of the first back out during COVID as well, took some risks, jumped throught he logistical hoops and - looking at their schedule - seem to be very solidly booked despite adding more and more boats (and onshore options) over the last 3 years. We'll give it a couple years to settle - but this looks like a success story to me.
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The version with compressed air requires a full function check by a Drager-certified technician every 12 months, and the replacement of the pressure reducer every ten years (Drager says overhaul it every 10 years but it is actually cheaper just to replace it). Either the filter cartridge version or the compressed air version is I think a good start. Servicing for the compressed air version would need to be established in the Red Sea as Drager don't have an office themselves in Egypt, and their reps are based in the Cairo and Alexandria areas.

I guess the obvious question is would there be enough demand from North America for a Nautilus-style/priced operation in the Red Sea? Especially given that it would be up against the cheaper Red Sea Aggressor operation?
 
Nick_Radov:
Yes, lithium batteries are a growing fire risk with all of the devices that divers carry now. The US Coast Guard has published guidance on storage and charging to minimize fire risk. Those are worth reading and following but I think they are just recommendations rather than rules, and obviously they don't have any force in other countries.

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Cheers Nick - they are certainly worth a read and even if not in force in other countries they do offer some good guidance. I'm not sure that an ABC extinguisher is capable of extinguishing them though. Best bet on a boat might be to grab a burning battery with something like blacksmiths tongs and then throw the battery off the stern - not very environmentally friendly but certainly a safe option!
 
i was in 2021 at the new dream. nightmare boat. but at the end we didnt left it. still nice dives. after you fly to egypt, do you leave the boat?
 
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