The Terri Schiavo Case

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree that little of this has to do with Terri. Unfortunately, for many people it also has little to do with well thought out philosophy either. It does however have everything to do with sending a particular political message one way or the other, which more often than not just results in contradictions.

For example, true pro-life advocates who believe all life should be preserved are being courted and parroted by politicians, lawyers and pro-life wannabees and lightweights who distort the argument and say Terri's life should be spared because new medical advances in the future may make her recovery possible. These are ironically usually the same people who support limiting stem cell research to existing lines out of concern that stem cell research would lead to fetuses being created for the express purpose of research. This well intentioned policy is however generally agreed by people in the field to be a policy that dooms the potential for any significant medical benefit. You can't have it both ways and people cannot borrow part of a philosophy or stretch it to mean more than it does.

Similarly, legal arguments for keeping Teri alive advocate Teri's due process rights but do so only by ignoring years of prior decisions by state courts and recently by federal courts as politicians attempt to pass laws to circumvent the courts as the due process that occurred did not produce the results they wanted. Somehow I just don't think that is what our founding fathers had in mind when they drafted the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[triton94949]

I agree that little of this has to do with Terri. Unfortunately, for many people it also has little to do with well thought out philosophy either. It does however have everything to do with sending a particular political message one way or the other, which more often than not just results in contradictions.

For example, true pro-life advocates who believe all life should be preserved are being courted and parroted by politicians, lawyers and pro-life wannabees and lightweights who distort the argument and say Terri's life should be spared because new medical advances in the future may make her recovery possible. These are ironically usually the same people who support limiting stem cell research to existing lines out of concern that stem cell research would lead to fetuses being created for the express purpose of research. This well intentioned policy is however generally agreed by people in the field to be a policy that dooms the potential for any significant medical benefit. You can't have it both ways and people cannot borrow part of a philosophy or stretch it to mean more than it does.

Similarly, legal arguments for keeping Teri alive advocate Teri's due process rights but do so only by ignoring years of prior decisions by state courts and recently by federal courts as politicians attempt to pass laws to circumvent the courts as the due process that occurred did not produce the results they wanted. Somehow I just don't think that is what our founding fathers had in mind when they drafted the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I take it that you are a D/A -- district attorney or ADA?

You seem to have a really good understanding of the constitutional issues, just like H2OAndy.

 

[dlndavid]

Terri's Last Chance
It's time to try giving Terri Schiavo orally administered liquids.
by William Anderson
03/23/2005 12:45:00 PM

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/390mvxiz.asp

 

[DA Aquamaster]

A question that I think should be considered is what would Teri say to her parents if she could have 5 minutes or normal consciousness and awareness with full use of her mental faculties knowing that after those 5 minutes she would return to her comotose state for the forseeable future. I am not sure what she would say would be what she really felt or wanted.

Every now and then things happen that remind me that parents are often the people least able to understand what their children want and need. When I worked as a child protection social worker I often encountered teen parents who would prefer to put their children up for adoption but were prevented form doing so by their parent's and family's values that stated that blood runs deep and it is wrong to let someone else raise your child. In those cases, the mother invariably failed to avail herself of reasonable efforts to reunite her with her child and in a real sense allowed the termination of parental rights to occur while making nothing more than a show of fighting for her rights to appease her family. In effect when the termination occurred she was able to get what she wanted and needed all along for both her and her child but was able to lay the blame at the feet the social service system and in so doing appease her family.

In my current capacity, I am working with a student with disabilities who does not want to attend college but cannot tell their parents as it is the parents dream for thier child to obtain a college degree. This student has attended college for the better part of decade and has enjoyed none of it. The student is stressed with tests and assignments, suffers a blow to their self esteem with every poor grade and has wasted nearly 10 years trying to achieve someone else's goal. Today, this student tried to use me as a means to withdraw from school as they really do not want to attend anymore by saying that I said something that I did not to the effect that the student needs to immediately withdraw from school. As a result I had a very angry mother tell me that I was not supportive of a person with disabilities. I had to suppress my emotions as I was more than a little peeved at the mothers accusation, (especially given that I have voluntarily worked in low paying jobs to do just exactly that for the last 15 years) and also at the student's dishonesty, but I understand the motives behind both. The student does not want to be there, but the student does not want to break the parents' hearts. The parents want the best for their child but are in denial about their child's true abilities and limitations. They do not see that their well intentioned efforts to encourage their child to finish college and to bolster the child's self esteem by expressing thier confidence that the student can graduate are the very things that are damaging the child's self esteem and self worth as the student cannot ever be what they want their child to be. My job in the next few weeks will be to get them both to see each other postions and to get the parents to accept that their child needs to be free to pursue his/her dreams.

So in short if she could, I suspect Teri would tell her parents that she wants to live since she loves them and would feel it is what they would want, when with every fiber of her being she would want to die in order to be released from the purgatory she is in. Her request to remain alive to please her parents would be a totally natural thing for a child to do, but at the same time it would be something that a loving parent would never allow. It is I think a stuation where the parents need help letting go, not continuing legal and political efforts that in the end will only give false hope and will never give them thier daughter back.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I take it that you are a D/A -- district attorney or ADA?

You seem to have a really good understanding of the constitutional issues, just like H2OAndy.

Oh my I've been accused of being a lawyer. I considered it for awhile, but I did not like some of the ethical issues involved. I originally went to college for criminal justice with the idea of going into criminal law later. I did end up in court about 3 times per week as a child protection social worker but ultimately pursued and completed an MS in mental health and rehabilitation counseling. My last couple of jobs in the Rehabilitation Counseling field have still been heavy on the legal issues though as I work extensively with the Sect 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act and as part of my job provide guidance to people on how to comply with them and/or not to violate them.

 

[triton94949]

Oh my I've been accused of being a lawyer. I considered it for awhile, but I did not like some of the ethical issues involved. I originally went to college for criminal justice with the idea of going into criminal law later. I did end up in court about 3 times per week as a child protection social worker but ultimately pursued and completed an MS in mental health and rehabilitation counseling. My last couple of jobs in the Rehabilitation Counseling field have still been heavy on the legal issues though as I work extensively with the Sect 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act and as part of my job provide guidance to people on how to comply with them and/or not to violate them.

Ah, "Dakota Aquamaster" now I get it. Sorry about the bad guess.

I have 2 friends who are ADAs, that's why I asked.

A question that I think should be considered is what would Teri say to her parents if she could have 5 minutes or normal consciousness and awareness with full use of her mental faculties knowing that after those 5 minutes she would return to her comotose state for the forseeable future. I am not sure what she would say would be what she really felt or wanted.
...

Well that is the legal issue that the judges are trying to second-guess.

I have a close friend, from church, who has serious mental issues, requiring daily medication. Her wish is that she just would like to die. Nothing you can say to her or do for her and no place that you can take her would make her change her mind.

Therefore I can only imagine what a person confined to a hospital bed for 15 years would say.

 

[SueMermaid]

That's heartbreaking, triton.

 

[Maya]

And I cannot understand why the husband won't simply remand custory of her back to her parents, especially if they are willing to pay for the medical care. I am a little uncomfortable with his instructions to unplug her.

But that is what he wants, and the courts have agreed with him. And presumably the judges believe that he has the right to decide.

And the salient issue before the judges is: what would Terri Schiavo want for herself?

That issue is being forgotten, in much of this discussion.

Her husband doesn't have custody of her, he is her court appointed guardian. As such, he wears 2 hats. Terri is a ward of the court, and the guardian is the agent of the court. Even if Michael were to resign as guardian immediately, the court would be required to appoint a successor guardian, and that successor guardian would be required to carry out the court's orders.

The salient issue of what would Terri have wanted, was extensively argued several years ago. That has been adjudicated. Ever since then (even though they testified UNDER OATH that they did NOT know Terri's wishes) her parents have been fighting the ruling from that proceeding.

Guardianship law in FL isn't perfect..but it is fairly progressive, compared to the rest of the states. We have a huge number of incapacitated persons in this state, some of them have family member guardians and some have professional guardians.

The people we should really be concerned about are those incapacitated people who have no money....both elderly and adult disabled people. It's very hard to find someone to act as guardian in a case like that, since the guardian and attorney works for free in those cases. Our indigent guardianship caseload is at least 50%, and all the professional guardians I know have at least that same percentage of pro bono cases.

I sure wish Jeb Bush cared as much about them as he does about this guardianship case.

 

[Maya]

It is also worth stating that Terri's parents would not be assuming the cost of her medical care. My understanding is that Terri is on Medicaid. You and I are paying for her medical care.

 

[triton94949]

That's heartbreaking, triton.

The financial impact on a family and a community from issues of disability like this are huge. That is partly why churches normally also get involved, because the community cannot afford to provide for all the needs.