The pony taboo

[gcbryan]

yeah, that's the point, that the diver wasn't using the pony correctly.



one difference is that usually divers in doubles are going on to technical training so they'll hopefuly be taught how to use the doubles correctly.

And that's sort of my point as well. They have the doubles for other reasons. A pony bottle is the perfect fit for those who aren't interested in that. Either because they aren't interested in overhead environments or because they aren't interested in long deep dives. For short deep multi-level dives a pony bottle (in my opinion) is appropriate technology and doubles can be overkill.

I'm the poster child for pony diving in that I like diving deeper walls where I don't necessarily spend a lot of time deep but I do like the redundancy of the pony bottle especially for the deeper parts of the dive (along with my buddy).

If separation occurs (down draft) or mechanical malfunction it's nice to have an option in addition to the help my buddy is able to provide. Doubles however are overkill because I don't need that much air and I don't need additional air at all except for an emergency.

 

[lowviz]

So take it easy on the rookie as I consider posting on this forum my means to educate myself.

Fair enough.

I began using a pony because I had been routinely ending my dives with more than 1500 psi in my single HP 120’s. I wanted to be able to plan my entire dive so that I would get closer to my target pressure but was well aware that novices make errors and would at times fall far short of my target. Unacceptable risk. I find that even a mild but sustained spike in SAC rate plays havoc with a tight dive plan. Unnerving. Firmly fixed in my mind is that the absolute end of what I can breathe is on my back. The pony counts for nothing. The reality is that subconsciously I know that the pony could be used if the need arises, but it is a personal failure to deploy it. This is what I use my pony for, allowing me to practice landing closer to a reasonable target without having to ever deploy the pony.
Another problem: a well-slung pony disappears under water, but it is my observation that it reappears when I need to reach for something with my left hand. The order I clip off my SPG and pony on the same D-Ring also matters very much. It also reappears and bears watching when I get very near the bottom. It also creates drag. All the arguments for or against ponys can be applied to the above observations with two very different and equally valid outcomes, ponys are good / ponys are bad. A pony bottle is a personal choice. When the use of a pony bottle erodes self discipline, attentive gas management, or general vigilance, it is a big liability. When it offers wiggle room in a dive plan gone bad, it can be a good thing.
The mind doesn’t start at day 1 BOW class and process forward when something goes really wrong. Muscle memory is first in line. I’ve had my reg pulled / kicked out of my mouth and noticed that both hands usually nearly catch the departing regulator then land over my mouth. A couple of fingers are always inadvertently around my backup reg bungied to my neck, -instant realization of what I’m holding, purge, and all is OK. Muscle memory. Same for the pony if you choose to wear one, deploy it often enough with your eyes closed that it is always the same thing in the same place that acts the same way every time. When you do deploy your pony on a drill, always orally inflate (if you need to) your wing / BC on the way up. –That’s what you’ll be doing when it is not a drill.

Keep thinking, stay safe.

 

[lamont]

And that's sort of my point as well. They have the doubles for other reasons. A pony bottle is the perfect fit for those who aren't interested in that. Either because they aren't interested in overhead environments or because they aren't interested in long deep dives. For short deep multi-level dives a pony bottle (in my opinion) is appropriate technology and doubles can be overkill.

I'm the poster child for pony diving in that I like diving deeper walls where I don't necessarily spend a lot of time deep but I do like the redundancy of the pony bottle especially for the deeper parts of the dive (along with my buddy).

If separation occurs (down draft) or mechanical malfunction it's nice to have an option in addition to the help my buddy is able to provide. Doubles however are overkill because I don't need that much air and I don't need additional air at all except for an emergency.

You seem to want to argue about something that I don't particularly want to argue about.

What you propose sounds fine to me. You've been around enough and know about pony bottles and I assume you've found a rigging that works for you so that the gas will be there if you ever need it.

My point is not about pony bottles vs. doubles, but about pony bottle threads on scubaboard vs. doubles diving threads on scubaboard. In the case of doubles I can assume that the diver will be going on to technical training and will have some contact with a more experienced mentor who will help them out. In the case of a pony bottle I have to assume the worst case which is that the diver doesn't have any kind of mentor/community with more experienced divers (otherwise why post on scubaboard asking about pony bottles?) and may not learn how to use the pony bottle correctly but may falsely believe that a pony bottle, in and of itself, makes for safer diving (and this attitude is often written in the threads).

I don't have any issue with what you're talking about though.

 

[String]

Doubles are a good example where the air in the tanks is part of the dive plan. With pony's, it's just there if things go wrong, or off plan!

It has to be part of the backup plan. Blindly strapping a pony on and hoping its got enough gas is foolhardy.

You have to calculate given your own consumption rates and the dive in question whether the pony has the gas to get you out of jail or not. That IS an integral part of the dive plan. Just as with a twinset or accelerated deco dives you have to ensure you have enough back gas to deco out or get to the surface a pony is identical in that its a small second tank.

 

[Iain Thysse]

Very disappointing. I was reading the thread from the very beginning. I simply didn't understand your meaning of extra.

As Diver Dennis said...redundant: as in have an excess. More than you need. Having excess or duplicate parts that can continue to perform in the event of malfunction of some of the parts.

If gas (or the backpack) is how you choose to manage your risk, then I'd not call it extra. It is a vital part of your safety reserve. Perhaps the idea is simply one of semantics, but it goes to mindset, so I wanted to be clear.

You are right, but there is such a thing as taking to much on a dive (a 5th dive light, 3 snorkels, 5 reels, etc)(and this is toung in cheek before I get my words handed to me again).... now I am not saying that he is, but that is the other side of this argument.

I don't dive any differently recreationally than I do when technical diving. I make decisions about how much gas to carry and how to carry it based on environment, length of dive, and other factors. This is the same process whether I am going into a pool for training, or going into a cave. Therefore I wouldn't regard any of it as "extra".

Here I have to agree with you again....do you think that all these calculations are made by the guy who posted and then he decreased the amount of air in his pony to 0 when he realised that he should have enough with the single on his back for a 30 min dive at 12m? If he then decided that he was going to take a full pony anyway, that air would be redundant surely?



On this we are in total agreement. If you carry any gear as a matter of safety, it should be practiced. Because if needed, it will likely be needed under stress.

Oh good....all I was trying to say (clearly verrrry badly) was this, so lets call it ended and go and get a bear.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

Sure, one must plan the equipment setup, but a pony is not part of any dive plan which is what I was discussing.

That is kinda like Planning that you have gas in the car to get to the dive site.

Doubles are a good example where the air in the tanks is part of the dive plan. With pony's, it's just there if things go wrong, or off plan!

There is a lot of planning that goes into diving, however while all the equipment, transportation, etc., is part of A Plan, it's not part of the dive plan, and neither is my pony!

Sorry I could not disagree more. It might not be part of the dive planning for a untrained diver but it sure is for someone whom is trained properly on the use of a Pony. You need to know your expected SAC or RMV, you need to know the dive plan depth, you need to know how your SAC/RMV varies with depth and level of stress, you need to know at what point in the dive the worst case scenerio might occur that would take the most gas to properly surface. Then you can determine if the amount of gas in your pony is sufficient.

This needs to be done on recreational dives also.

John

 

[jkaterenchuk]

Fair enough.

Same for the pony if you choose to wear one, deploy it often enough with your eyes closed that it is always the same thing in the same place that acts the same way every time. When you do deploy your pony on a drill, always orally inflate (if you need to) your wing / BC on the way up. –That’s what you’ll be doing when it is not a drill.

Keep thinking, stay safe.

Did your instructor not discuss attaching a spare LP inflator hose to the Pony?

Would that not also give you redundancy for Wing inflation and DS inflation?

John

 

[String]

Did your instructor not discuss attaching a spare LP inflator hose to the Pony?

Would that not also give you redundancy for Wing inflation and DS inflation?

John

And another potential failure point which is something you dont want on a backup.

Why are you going to want to inflate your wing going up anyway?

 

[scubadiver888]

How does one PLAN a pony into a dive profile? No one PLANS to have a first stage malfunction. If you are planning a pony into the mix, you need to work on planning, because that is not what they are for.

Pony's are emergency air and redundancy... period. If you want more air, than dive doubles, buy a larger tank, or breath less!

I carry my pony for redundancy. If you have a good dive buddy, than a pony is unnecessary assuming you are in conditions where separation is next to impossible.

I don't generally dive mine when diving locally. When traveling I use a pony. I guess I'll find out how this all works out when we go to FL in July as I can NOT likely travel with one bag unless I go over the limits.. a lot! :11:

I am by no means an authority on anything scuba but I have been reading a lot and talking to the obviously more experienced divers on every dive trip.

Divers I've talked to doing things like cave and wreck diving do a lot of planning. They talk a lot of thirds (one third down, one third up and one third as a back up). If a single and a pony is what they need they will dive with a pony for that purpose. Getting through some wrecks is easier with that configuration. Trying to take off your BCD and push it through a small opening with doubles might be impossible but a single and a pony is doable.

Additionally, the even more technical divers (which I've only read and never dove with) are talking about diving with different gas mixes. One configuration I've read is using a trimix for depth, switching to nitrox on the way back and a high O2 mix for the shallow deco stop. I know this sort of diving is years off for me but I know this is where I'm heading.

 

[String]

One configuration I've read is using a trimix for depth, switching to nitrox on the way back and a high O2 mix for the shallow deco stop. I know this sort of diving is years off for me but I know this is where I'm heading.

Accelerated deco is very common. It makes sense when you have any stops over about 10 mins or so.