The pony taboo

[RonFrank]

Sorry I could not disagree more. It might not be part of the dive planning for a untrained diver but it sure is for someone whom is trained properly on the use of a Pony. You need to know your expected SAC or RMV, you need to know the dive plan depth, you need to know how your SAC/RMV varies with depth and level of stress, you need to know at what point in the dive the worst case scenerio might occur that would take the most gas to properly surface. Then you can determine if the amount of gas in your pony is sufficient.

This needs to be done on recreational dives also.

John

19CF of gas will get me safely to the surface with a normal ascent and SS from any recreational depth (to 130', and I don't dive that deep often).

Nuff said!

The key is to make sure the pony bottle is full! I check mine before and after each dive. I use a standard first and second stage, and the valve is what one finds on most newish tanks, so I'm not cutting corners, or using some odd proprietary configuration.

So when planning my dive, I don't PLAN on using a pony, it's there if I need it, but not part of any DIVE Plan. It's more a part of the non-plan Plan!

Sometimes I do pony drills, and in that case, sure I plan on doing the drills, and the Pony becomes part of my plan. At other times, it just sits there idle. I've never needed this btw, but it sure seems like a good idea once you read about something going south. Two divers in Coz last year (separate incidents) both had their first stages freeze up at depth do to moisture in the tanks which resulted in Alum Oxidation. Either of these divers could have lost their lives, however both kept their heads about them, and got air from their buddies.

What would a pony be worth to a diver who has a first stage failure at depth?.... Priceless! A good buddy works as well, but those are not always available when on vacation. My family does not dive.

 

[String]

Have you done any CCR diving?

Only brief try dives

Any Cave diving?

Twice and thats it without courses

Have you dove with a dual inflate wing?

Never - why would i want to with a drysuit?

Proper training is fine and the hole point of this thread. Although i encourage EVERY diver to ALWAYS dive redundant i see far too many strapping a pony on with no thought to setup, deployment, use or any idea of its limitations and promptly go on dives way out of the cover it gets them with and a false sense of security.

 

[lowviz]

Did your instructor not discuss attaching a spare LP inflator hose to the Pony?

Would that not also give you redundancy for Wing inflation and DS inflation?

John

I consider it an unnecessary complication. I don't use my drysuit for lift. However, I'm fine with it if you see value in this extra gear.

PerroneFord:
Sometimes you get the beer and sometimes the beer gets you. Mind if I join you guys?

 

[PerroneFord]

PerroneFord:
Sometimes you get the beer and sometimes the beer gets you. Mind if I join you guys?

Beer consumption shall commence around 3:30pm. If you're here, we'll toast. If not, I'll have one for you...

 

[lamont]

In most cases its not.

Have you done any CCR diving? Any Cave diving? Have you dove with a dual inflate wing? I realize these types of diving are far beyond the scope of the original posters question. However, my point in raising it is to stress the need for proper training or mentoring on the use of a pony bottle and practising the skills versus just slapping one on because you heard its a good thing or read it on SB.

John

I dive with an argon bottle which gives me completely redundant buoyancy (backgas->wing, argon bottle->drysuit). I don't do that for the redundancy, however, and I don't think this is a good idea for a pony bottle. The pony bottle is supposed to be there for you to breathe off of in the event of an emergency. If your backgas is gone you can orally inflate the wing off the pony bottle. If your wing itself is compromised then having a redundant bottle won't help. You can add a double bladder wing in that circumstance, but I wouldn't run it off the pony bottle -- in the event of a wing failure you can just use backgas.

I also don't like the idea of using a double bladder wing. On any dive where I'm that concerned about a wing failure, I'll have a drysuit and a scooter anyway -- which already gives me triple redundancy. On any dive when I don't have that I typically have double redundancy between drysuit and wing. And on any dives when I'm just diving air recreationally I'll just swim it up and drop weights.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I do however think that there is frequently an anti-pony bottle bias in many of these responses. For instance, a diver dying in Puget Sound with an empty main tank and a full pony bottle with an undeployable regulator (whatever that means) isn't a reason not to have a pony bottle. It's irrelevant. Would they have been better off being OOA with no pony bottle?

It's relevent in this respect ... he and his buddy had planned to separate, and he had planned to use the gas in his pony bottle to return to the beach (this was his second dive on the main cylinder).

If he didn't have the pony bottle, his plan would not have included it.

The accident resulted (as most do) from multiple mistakes ... it was not due to the use, or even misuse of a pony bottle. It was due to a poorly thought-out dive plan, a failure to do a proper gear check prior to the dive, and a general complacency about how the dive was executed.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jkaterenchuk]

19CF of gas will get me safely to the surface with a normal ascent and SS from any recreational depth (to 130', and I don't dive that deep often).

Nuff said!

The key is to make sure the pony bottle is full! I check mine before and after each dive. I use a standard first and second stage, and the valve is what one finds on most newish tanks, so I'm not cutting corners, or using some odd proprietary configuration.

So when planning my dive, I don't PLAN on using a pony, it's there if I need it, but not part of any DIVE Plan. It's more a part of the non-plan Plan!

Sometimes I do pony drills, and in that case, sure I plan on doing the drills, and the Pony becomes part of my plan. At other times, it just sits there idle. I've never needed this btw, but it sure seems like a good idea once you read about something going south. Two divers in Coz last year (separate incidents) both had their first stages freeze up at depth do to moisture in the tanks which resulted in Alum Oxidation. Either of these divers could have lost their lives, however both kept their heads about them, and got air from their buddies.

What would a pony be worth to a diver who has a first stage failure at depth?.... Priceless! A good buddy works as well, but those are not always available when on vacation. My family does not dive.

Ok then its sumantics. You did say "any dive plan" but I now understand you meant your dive plan. You have already planned it into your dive plan. You know you SAC/RMV. You have calculated how much gas you need to properly ascent from the maximum depth you dive. You know that 19cu ft is enough for you with safety. You check before each dive to confirm you have 19cuft available. I see that as part of the plan. It does not need to be recalculated for each dive if you do not exceed NDL and 130ft. If you did you would need to take a look at it again. Or if you change you dives to not have direct access to the surface you would need to do it again.

John

 

[Thalassamania]

Also ask about strapping a spare snorkel to the pony for redundancy...

Would that be a spare nitrox snorkel or a spare trimix snorkel?

 

[jkaterenchuk]

I dive with an argon bottle which gives me completely redundant buoyancy (backgas->wing, argon bottle->drysuit). I don't do that for the redundancy, however, and I don't think this is a good idea for a pony bottle. The pony bottle is supposed to be there for you to breathe off of in the event of an emergency. If your backgas is gone you can orally inflate the wing off the pony bottle. If your wing itself is compromised then having a redundant bottle won't help. You can add a double bladder wing in that circumstance, but I wouldn't run it off the pony bottle -- in the event of a wing failure you can just use backgas.

I also don't like the idea of using a double bladder wing. On any dive where I'm that concerned about a wing failure, I'll have a drysuit and a scooter anyway -- which already gives me triple redundancy. On any dive when I don't have that I typically have double redundancy between drysuit and wing. And on any dives when I'm just diving air recreationally I'll just swim it up and drop weights.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying. But as you know with the type of diving you are doing and I am doing it is well beyond recreational and there are different camps regarding the right procedures, equipment and protocols. The differences have been argued more times then I can count and in the end each camp believes there approach is right. I see no reason to open that can of worms again here.

John

 

[Diver Dennis]

Depends how deep you're going Thall...