The pony taboo

[lamont]

there was a diver in puget sound who died several years back who ran out of backgas and died with a full pony bottle due to an undeployable pony regulator.

there's a lot of issues with pony bottles that this case can highlight.

1. if you've got problems with basic diving skills, adding a pony bottle doesn't guarantee that you'll have the skills to be able to use it correctly if it becomes time to use it.

2. if your gas plan includes the pony bottle things can go wrong if you don't have or can't access that gas.

3. there are several gear issues:

- the regulator must always be deployable
- the valve must be manipulatable underwater
- the SPG must be checkable underwater
- its helpful to be able to do a bubble check on the regs and valve on the pony
- a free flow on the pony bottle should be detectable
- the valve should be dove charged but off to prevent a free flow and keep the first stage from loosening

so, taking a bad diver and adding a pony bottle doesn't necessarily fix anything, and may make the diver more likely to hurt themselves since you are adding additional equipment and complexity. it isn't a substitute for basic skills.

on the other hand, if you've got the basic skills there's nothing inherently wrong with it -- the problem is that most divers asking this question don't have the basic skills yet. and that is where the disconnection usually comes in this thread whenever it comes up. the original poster in these kinds of threads typically needs to focus more on basic skills. the people who post that they use pony bottles all the time without issues are typically more experienced divers who already have the basic skills.

 

[gcbryan]

there was a diver in puget sound who died several years back who ran out of backgas and died with a full pony bottle due to an undeployable pony regulator.

there's a lot of issues with pony bottles that this case can highlight.

1. if you've got problems with basic diving skills, adding a pony bottle doesn't guarantee that you'll have the skills to be able to use it correctly if it becomes time to use it.

2. if your gas plan includes the pony bottle things can go wrong if you don't have or can't access that gas.

3. there are several gear issues:

- the regulator must always be deployable
- the valve must be manipulatable underwater
- the SPG must be checkable underwater
- its helpful to be able to do a bubble check on the regs and valve on the pony
- a free flow on the pony bottle should be detectable
- the valve should be dove charged but off to prevent a free flow and keep the first stage from loosening

so, taking a bad diver and adding a pony bottle doesn't necessarily fix anything, and may make the diver more likely to hurt themselves since you are adding additional equipment and complexity. it isn't a substitute for basic skills.

on the other hand, if you've got the basic skills there's nothing inherently wrong with it -- the problem is that most divers asking this question don't have the basic skills yet. and that is where the disconnection usually comes in this thread whenever it comes up. the original poster in these kinds of threads typically needs to focus more on basic skills. the people who post that they use pony bottles all the time without issues are typically more experienced divers who already have the basic skills.

I would agree with your basic premise that pony bottles are neither good nor bad and that the usual problem with these posts is that inexperienced divers are asking the questions and a pony bottle isn't usually the most immediate fix for their situation (more experience is).

I do however think that there is frequently an anti-pony bottle bias in many of these responses. For instance, a diver dying in Puget Sound with an empty main tank and a full pony bottle with an undeployable regulator (whatever that means) isn't a reason not to have a pony bottle. It's irrelevant. Would they have been better off being OOA with no pony bottle?

No one is really arguing that a pony bottle is the magic fix for everything that can go wrong underwater. It simply provides redundancy if used correctly. Diving doubles isn't a magic fix either if they are used incorrrectly. Diving with a buddy isn't a fix if done incorrectly. It's not a valid argument against pony bottles to argue what can happen if they are used incorrectly. Nothing can be used incorrectly and work effectively.

 

[gcbryan]

There are two more issues with pony bottles that I don't see addressed very often in these threads so I'll bring them up here.

Often times divers will frown on the use of pony bottles for redundancy (buddy is your redundancy) and yet they show up with doubles. In this case they are basically arguing that you shouldn't have a pony for redundancy but they aren't relying solely on a buddy for redundancy since they show up with doubles. Doesn't make sense.

I also think a pony bottle user should make it clear to dive buddies that carrying the pony bottle changes nothing regarding anyone's training. If anyone is OOA then the buddy donates their spare regulator. Forget the pony bottle. If the pony bottle user choses to use it fine but don't assume anything. Also, if the pony bottle owner choses to donate the bottle that's fine as well but don't assume that either. The point here is that using a pony bottle doesn't make one a less effective buddy. It just provides one additional option.

 

[lamont]

I do however think that there is frequently an anti-pony bottle bias in many of these responses. For instance, a diver dying in Puget Sound with an empty main tank and a full pony bottle with an undeployable regulator (whatever that means) isn't a reason not to have a pony bottle. It's irrelevant. Would they have been better off being OOA with no pony bottle?

Without the pony bottle would the diver have run OOG, or did the presence of the pony bottle lead to complacency which led to the OOG?

No one is really arguing that a pony bottle is the magic fix for everything that can go wrong underwater. It simply provides redundancy if used correctly. Diving doubles isn't a magic fix either if they are used incorrrectly. Diving with a buddy isn't a fix if done incorrectly. It's not a valid argument against pony bottles to argue what can happen if they are used incorrectly. Nothing can be used incorrectly and work effectively.

My first dive in doubles I, personally, was very aware of the fact that I had 3 valves trying to kill me now instead of just one.

Some people throw doubles on and immediately post about how much safer they feel with the additional gas and redundancy, and I do think this is the same mistake as throwing a pony bottle on and immediately feeling safer.

 

[gcbryan]

Without the pony bottle would the diver have run OOG, or did the presence of the pony bottle lead to complacency which led to the OOG?


My first dive in doubles I, personally, was very aware of the fact that I had 3 valves trying to kill me now instead of just one.

Some people throw doubles on and immediately post about how much safer they feel with the additional gas and redundancy, and I do think this is the same mistake as throwing a pony bottle on and immediately feeling safer.

To me it sounds like a stretch to try to fit those facts into your pre-existing bias (my assumption or bias if you will!). No one should be running out of air unless there was a gross malfunction. If that wasn't the case then the diver simply was not using a pony bottle correctly.

Regarding your point about throwing on doubles or pony bottles and feeling safer without knowing why you have changed equipment or without thinking through all the possible failure points is the same thing and I agree. However, I see these points being brought up mainly in posts regarding pony bottles and not in posts regarding diving doubles so therefore it seems a bit one-sided.

 

[RonFrank]

TO an extent you do need to plan it. If you are carrying it for redundant bailout you have to calculate if it contains SUFFICIENT bailout for the dive and depth you are thinking of going. If it can then fine, if it cant then you need to move to twins instead.

So, you do need to plan your bailout but its a backup plan not the main plan.

Sure, one must plan the equipment setup, but a pony is not part of any dive plan which is what I was discussing.

That is kinda like Planning that you have gas in the car to get to the dive site.

Doubles are a good example where the air in the tanks is part of the dive plan. With pony's, it's just there if things go wrong, or off plan!

There is a lot of planning that goes into diving, however while all the equipment, transportation, etc., is part of A Plan, it's not part of the dive plan, and neither is my pony!

 

[RonFrank]

Often times divers will frown on the use of pony bottles for redundancy (buddy is your redundancy) and yet they show up with doubles. In this case they are basically arguing that you shouldn't have a pony for redundancy but they aren't relying solely on a buddy for redundancy since they show up with doubles. Doesn't make sense.

Double are a form of redundancy, but when I dive doubles, or my buddies are on doubles, we are using the buddy system. There is less a chance of needing it, but it's still easier to grab your buddies air, and then worry about your kit, vs. screwing around with isolating a tank, and maybe switching regs all while holding your breath.

I also think a pony bottle user should make it clear to dive buddies that carrying the pony bottle changes nothing regarding anyone's training. If anyone is OOA then the buddy donates their spare regulator. Forget the pony bottle. If the pony bottle user choses to use it fine but don't assume anything. Also, if the pony bottle owner choses to donate the bottle that's fine as well but don't assume that either. The point here is that using a pony bottle doesn't make one a less effective buddy. It just provides one additional option.

It is up to the divers to discuss their equipment setup, and how air should be donated prior to the dive. It's a crucial part of the dive plan which is often unnecessary, but needs to be discussed if you are diving with someone new.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Frankly, the discussions and biases about "pony" bottles are endless. People immediately set up situations about dive conditions and diver skill to suit their preconceptions.

However, there is one fact: There is no such thing as too much breathing gas. Carry the maximum you conveniently can and plan a safe dive around that amount.

So, my recommendation is to forget your original premise. Instead concentrate on figuring out what tank configuration fits your diving. Many folks I know have chosen to dive a large single tank, others dive symetrical (both same size) doubles, others dive asymetrical (each different size) doubles. What matters is not what others think of the configuration. It is what you and the people you dive with think of it.

 

[gcbryan]

Double are a form of redundancy, but when I dive doubles, or my buddies are on doubles, we are using the buddy system. There is less a chance of needing it, but it's still easier to grab your buddies air, and then worry about your kit, vs. screwing around with isolating a tank, and maybe switching regs all while holding your breath.

When I use a pony I'm on the buddy system as well and if necessary I'll grab my buddies air as well. Therefore as you can see there need be no distinction made for pony bottle usage. Good diving is good diving.

 

[lamont]

To me it sounds like a stretch to try to fit those facts into your pre-existing bias (my assumption or bias if you will!). No one should be running out of air unless there was a gross malfunction. If that wasn't the case then the diver simply was not using a pony bottle correctly.

yeah, that's the point, that the diver wasn't using the pony correctly.

Regarding your point about throwing on doubles or pony bottles and feeling safer without knowing why you have changed equipment or without thinking through all the possible failure points is the same thing and I agree. However, I see these points being brought up mainly in posts regarding pony bottles and not in posts regarding diving doubles so therefore it seems a bit one-sided.

one difference is that usually divers in doubles are going on to technical training so they'll hopefuly be taught how to use the doubles correctly.