The pony taboo

[Bottomfeeder Brodie]

Reading other threads on this forum, I see that down currents are a big problem. So far I see experienced divers getting caught up in this unseen monsters by total surprize and finding themselves way out of their dive plan at some scary depths. My pony is just air, I keep just air in it even though its O2 cleaned and nitrox stickered. I did this because I am a big fan of nitrox and if I make a mistake or have to assist a fellow diver past my PPO limit, I can switch to air. Reading the posts about getting sucked to the bottom in these currents, I believe it could come in very handy until I get myself back to a safe depth. I see the barrel sights locking in on me now about dive planning (smile) but my what if shield reflects the many posts I've read about rescuing buddies from depth from either narc'ed out, BC failures, stupidity, etc. So I guess I could be a better buddy by being able to switch up my mixture and being able to help in places I don't belong. Another would be to hand off my slung pony to someone that is in the middle of an education in gas management and planning. I have a tendency to babysit the world anyway so .....

 

[bletso]

At our dive shop, we required everyone who dove with us below 20 msw to have a pony with them. I have never met anyone who has mastered the act of breathing water, so better safe than sorry. We also taught from day one, self sufficiency. Don't confuse that with solo diving, a different beast and mindset completely.

We often had problems with boat captains who didn't understand what a pony was for. I have seen several cases where there were air depleting free flows. The owners always were grateful for the pony when it happened. Yes we dive cold, dark, murky water often.

I have been to areas of the country where a pony was the norm and the vast majority of divers on the boat would have one. I have dove areas where we were the only ones with the pony and were given a ration for it.

Dale

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Ah the pony bottle discussion. I'll take a crack at it this time..



Because they aren't needed. For recreational diving purposes, you start with a more than adequate supply of gas (air) on your back. If you cannot carry an adequate supply of gas to breathe, don't do the dive.




And those same deaths could likely have been prevented if the diver had simply chosen not to dive, if the diver had worked diligently to not separate from the buddy, or if the diver had bothered to pay attention to their gauges.




Is this a problem of gear failure or diver skill failure?



Again, is this the fault of the gear? Or is it the inability of the divers to plan and think ahead? As well as understand when it is time to turn around and go home?



So eliminate the reason, and you eliminate the need. For a recreational dive at 60ft, the average diver has an hour or more of gas strapped to their back. If the diver has skills so poor that they cannot manage to check their gauges for an hour, how proficient will that diver be when it comes to deploying a pony bottle? Something that requires practice and a cool head, especially when you add the stress of not being able to breathe.



There is no taboo. I think experienced divers realize the limitations in most situations and simply chose to dive in a manner that makes a pony bottle unnecessary.



A pony bottle is not a buddy. It cannot think. It cannot remind you to check your gas supply. It cannot tell you that you are too deep or breathing too fast. It cannot extricate you from fishing line, and it can't tell you not to do that swim-through because you'll get your fin caught and breathe down all your gas supply. A pony bottle has dubious purpose. IF your diving requires you to carry a larger gas supply, then you need a larger tank. IF your diving requires that you need redundancy because of the inherent danger of the dive, then use doubles.

The problem I see with most newer divers such as yourself is that you are discovering what most new divers discover shortly after OW class. And that is, the fallacy that "everything is always going to be ok". This is the impression OW class is designed to leave you with. On the opposite end of the spectrum, technical diving instructs that NOTHING will be OK, and we must plan for everything to fail. The truth lies somewhere in between.

So now you're doing dives and you realize, wow, what would happen if I got separated from my buddy and I needed air? I need a pony bottle. Or what would happen if I had a free-flow I couldn't stop it and I can't get to my buddy? I need a pony bottle. What happens if I don't pay attention and I run out of air? I need a pony bottle. No. You don't. What you need to do is to increase your diving skill and awareness so that you NEVER become separated from your buddy, and you NEVER become so inattentive to your depth and time, you breathe more gas than you should. And those two things won't cost you a dime.

Suppose, for instance that you actually learn how much air your breathe on the surface, and had a formula that told you how much you would consume at 60ft. And let's say that you learn that with your breathing rate, you knew you had 60 minutes at 60ft. And so did your buddy. If you both went to 60 ft and you cut off your tank, and shared with your buddy, you'd both have 30 minutes worth of air to breathe for an ascent. Plenty, with no pony bottle. Let's say you both went to 60ft did a dive of 30 minutes, and you shut off your tank. Now you share, and you both have 15 minutes worth of air to ascend. Plenty enough to deal with a catastrophic failure of either of your tanks, ascend normally, do a safety stop, etc. No pony bottle needed. But what happened was that your hour long dive now has to be 30 minutes long to have that kind of safety margin. So what happens if you both dive larger tanks? Well the time gets increased a bit, and you can stay longer with the same safety margin.

Suppose you increase your diving skill so that you and your buddy can always dive within arms distance of each other, even in zero vis? If you both had this level of skill, then losing your buddy would no longer be a reason to worry about carrying a redundant tank. Combine this with planning ahead so that you start your ascent with plenty of air in case something goes wrong, and you eliminate the need for the pony bottle altogether.

So what happens when you really DO want to stay for an hour, AND have the safety margin? You transition to doubles. That is why you see many technical divers move to doubles and never move back. It's not that the dives they are doing are always penetration dives, or very hard dives. It's that doubles offer a vast safety margin that allow them to deal with many underwater problems without stress or worry. I don't do dives below 70ft or so any more without doubles and a solid buddy. Just not worth the risk.

In my view, you should be working far harder on increasing your diving skill, including learning to plan your dives with adequate safety reserves, and you should be spending far less time worrying about what you can buy to mitigate the lack of those skills.

That's just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

what a bunch of garbage... Your proposed solution is don't dive,, that makes sense,,,

the solution is become an expert diver who can dive with a perfect buddy.. well THAT is certainly unrealistic for nearly EVERYONE.

You also imply that air consumption is an easily predictable and stable parameter..It is NOT in the real world of the ocean with currents and tides and photographers and hunters chasing and pursuing things (where do you develop these theories (quarries?)...

And of course the stupidest comment is that a pony is too complex for the stressed diver to deploy....yeah like it is more stressfull to pull the pony reg (that is strapped around your neck) 2 inches to your mouth than to share air with your buddy in a real situation...ridiculously stupid assertions..


And you seem to think a pony bottle is intended to assist a diver from running out of air..it is PRIMARILY utilized as insurance against an unforseeable, unpredictable catastrophic loss of air supply....It ain''t that hard to understand????????????

 

[dumpsterDiver]

......To answer Darnold's question about why doubles are better than a pony, I feel they have several advantages. One is that the gas in them can be used independently or together. Another is that you don't have to "deploy" it to use them. You monitor the breathing supply in one place unlike a pony or other redundant supply. You also test the ability to breathe that redundant gas all dive so there are no surprises should the need truly arise to use it.

This is another indefensible assertion. For the double tanks to provide a degree of redundancy, the diver MUST be able to manipulate the manifold behind his neck during an emergency... This is EASIER than sticking a pony bottle reg in your mouth???????????? Where do you come up with this "deploy" garbage?

In an emergency, I can just throw the primary, stick a pony reg in my mouth and start an ascent. I can probably make it from from 100 feet to 50 as I slowly ascend with zero task loading before the doubles diver can determine which side his catastrophic failure is associated with, signal his "PERFECT" buddy, hike his rig up so he can grab the doubles, and then start cranking on his isolator.

He may eliminate his ability to use the power inflator (when shutting down the manifold), while the single tank - pony bottle diver MAY retain the ability to use the inflator depending on the degree of problem.

 

[fl-diver]

It seems that over and over again I read how dangerous pony bottles are and if you you need more gas you should dive doubles. I have been diving since I was 13 years old. I am now 32. I still don't have near as many dives as many people out there. In my many years of diving I have personally assisted people with OOA and equipment failure situations and in one case I needed to buddy breathe up from 80 fsw because I didn't have an octo at the time. (Got one the next day.) My cousin with the equipment failure has never dove since.

I have done a few solo dives but 98% I always dive with a buddy.
I never used a pony bottle until late last year when a few things changed. I now have 2 young children and I recently started spearfishing. I still spearfish with a buddy but obviously either one of us could be fighting a fish at anytime and may not be available for immediate assistance.

For me it is pretty simple. We all trust our buddies to help us in an emergency situation right? If you are willing to put your life in their hands you should also hope their willing to take care of you family when your gone.

 

[PerroneFord]

what a bunch of garbage... Your proposed solution is don't dive,, that makes sense,,,

If conditions include very strong currents, and potentially dangerous conditions, I won't dive. I am not being paid to dive. I do it to have fun. And if I have to worry more about prevailing conditions than enjoying my dive, I simply won't go. Perhaps others feel differently. And I do understand that there is additional pressure when you have traveled some distance to dive. You don't want to waste the money. I have not yet had to deal with that pressure but I doubt my decisions would be any different.

the solution is become an expert diver who can dive with a perfect buddy.. well THAT is certainly unrealistic for nearly EVERYONE.

Agreed. But it can certainly be a goal, even if it's never reached. I try to be the best diver I can, and that forces me to make some choices others might not. Improving one's skill and awareness in the water should be a goal of all divers, regardless of experience or ability. Finding someone to dive with who is safety oriented should also be of importance. Do you disagree?

You also imply that air consumption is an easily predictable and stable parameter..It is NOT in the real world of the ocean with currents and tides and photographers and hunters chasing and pursuing things (where do you develop these theories (quarries?)...

Knowing your normal breathing rate is easily predicable and fairly stable. Knowing how you will breathe in an emergency is more guesswork. I chose to believe that my breathing rate would double under stress. And I planned my gas reserves around that, and added a bit extra as a precaution. When I faced an honest-to-goodness near death situation, I was glad to find out that I didn't reach a rate double that of my normal rate, but only 1/2 again as much. So far, my diving has included ocean wrecks, springs, caverns, and caves. Some with heavy current or heavy flow. My breathing rate calculations have held up fine in all these environments. If they don't in the cave, you die. It's a very good motivator to get things right.

And of course the stupidest comment is that a pony is too complex for the stressed diver to deploy....yeah like it is more stressfull to pull the pony reg (that is strapped around your neck) 2 inches to your mouth than to share air with your buddy in a real situation...ridiculously stupid assertions..

The majority of "pony bottle" setups I've seen did not put the regulator around the neck. Doing that, and leaving the bottle on all dive seems to me a very safe and easy solution and very closely replicates doubles.

And you seem to think a pony bottle is intended to assist a diver from running out of air..it is PRIMARILY utilized as insurance against an unforseeable, unpredictable catastrophic loss of air supply....It ain''t that hard to understand????????????

Part of the problem is that "pony bottle" says nothing about how it's used. Is it used to extend the dive? If so then it's a stage. Is it used to be used in emergency scenarios? Then it's a bailout bottle. Which I carry myself anytime I am in the water with a RB diver. With a less vague idea of how it's used, things become easier to resolve. My thoughts about divers using a pony bottle are primarily derived from the discussions of how divers plan to use them.

What is hard for me to understand is why a catastrophic loss of air supply is unforseeable, or unpredictable. I plan every dive I do as if that is going to happen, and equip myself accordingly. I choose to use doubles and a good buddy. For others, a bailout bottle is the correct choice. Really it doesn't matter. As long as the solution is well thought out, and practiced, it should work just fine in an emergency.

 

[RonFrank]

I dive with a 19CF pony on most deep dives, and sometime shallow as well if I go solo.

I attach it to my tank with Zeagle tank mount bands, and the weight does not bother me at all.

I've never had to use it, but I travel with it, and dive with it especially deep, or if I'm with unknown buddies.

 

[PerroneFord]

Clearly, you have a limited understanding of failure modes of doubles. So I won't take this any further.

...

...For the double tanks to provide a degree of redundancy, the diver MUST be able to manipulate the manifold behind his neck during an emergency..

...the doubles diver can determine which side his catastrophic failure is associated with, signal his "PERFECT" buddy, hike his rig up so he can grab the doubles, and then start cranking on his isolator.

...He may eliminate his ability to use the power inflator (when shutting down the manifold...

 

[PerroneFord]

Ron, a question for you.

In your experience and travels, do you find that a large proportion of pony bottle divers tend to place the reg around their neck as dumpsterdiver is alluding to? In my admittedly limited expereince with pony bottle divers, this seems to be the exception rather than the norm. The ones that I have spoken to do not do this and in fact, many do not even leave the tank on during the dive.

How do you use yours?

-P

I dive with a 19CF pony on most deep dives, and sometime shallow as well if I go solo.

I attach it to my tank with Zeagle tank mount bands, and the weight does not bother me at all.

I've never had to use it, but I travel with it, and dive with it especially deep, or if I'm with unknown buddies.

 

[Bonairetrip]

Bottom Feeder:

When I started diving, auto inflates on BCs were some new fangled thing, nobody but instructors had an octo and some still relied on the J valve to let them know when it was time to end the dive. And a small tank was either attached to a Fenzy or, later, only to be filled with argon.

Every significant change in gear (that I recall) has been met with much skepticism by seasoned divers. And that perspective has helped improve the gear and the techniques. And, IMHO, a pony is a good investment especially for certain types of situations.

It seems to me that you have tried to be very thoughtful about risks and risk management. I am just wondering whether you have placed too much emphasis on gear mitigating risks. IMHO, risk management is more a mental game than an equipment game. What would do if you ever got caught in a down current? An upcurrent? Inflator hose sticks open? A rescue class at some point might be a nice idea.

Finally, $6k on gear? All at once, with 15 dives? Yikes. On the one hand, I commend you for not showing up with gear from a garage sale that looks like it was last serviced when Reagan was prez. And for not buying just the bottom end of everything. OTOH, unless there is some speciality gear there (i.e., DUI drysuit, housed SLR, plate and redundant wings, Ti regs, etc.), wow.