The pony taboo

[Iain Thysse]

Not to be difficult here, but for the purposes of discussion, would you mind defining what you consider, "extra". I've certainly carried a lot of gas for some dives, but I would never have considered any of it, "extra". So I am genuinely curious what this means.

If you had taken the time to read the thread I am hoping you would have understood it...... It is about taking a pony on a recreational dive. I would concider that extra in the same way a hiking backpack is extra to take a walk around the block. Granted I would no longer consider it extra if I had a burst disk or 1st stage failure, but that is what this thread is about. I would imagine that you are talking about tech diving when you talk about carrying a lot of gas, and then it is not extra, but required. I really don't want to get into a who's dive is bigger so how about you just look at my post as saying what it says...that if you want to carry a pony make sure you know how to use it.

 

[PerroneFord]

If you had taken the time to read the thread I am hoping you would have understood it......

Very disappointing. I was reading the thread from the very beginning. I simply didn't understand your meaning of extra.

It is about taking a pony on a recreational dive. I would concider that extra in the same way a hiking backpack is extra to take a walk around the block. Granted I would no longer consider it extra if I had a burst disk or 1st stage failure, but that is what this thread is about.

If gas (or the backpack) is how you choose to manage your risk, then I'd not call it extra. It is a vital part of your safety reserve. Perhaps the idea is simply one of semantics, but it goes to mindset, so I wanted to be clear.

I would imagine that you are talking about tech diving when you talk about carrying a lot of gas, and then it is not extra, but required.

I don't dive any differently recreationally than I do when technical diving. I make decisions about how much gas to carry and how to carry it based on environment, length of dive, and other factors. This is the same process whether I am going into a pool for training, or going into a cave. Therefore I wouldn't regard any of it as "extra".

I really don't want to get into a who's dive is bigger so how about you just look at my post as saying what it says...that if you want to carry a pony make sure you know how to use it.

On this we are in total agreement. If you carry any gear as a matter of safety, it should be practiced. Because if needed, it will likely be needed under stress.

 

[SeaYoda]

I use a pony for redundancy and safety. I have not needed my pony for an emergency for myself. I have donated my pony on two occasions to others that were not so watchful on their air consumption and it worked very well. I have practiced deploying it and have changed configurations several times to see which works best. I use a 19 cf which is plenty to get me to the surface from the depths I dive. I dive solo and I'm a photographer - I guess I should be dead .

Diving "cave style" is great but try taking pictures and following any of the rules . I need to reduce my risk for my kind of diving just like others need to reduce their's for their particular needs. This is not a one size fits all question. Choosing to dive with a pony, choosing to dive a regimented format, choosing to dive solo etc. is just that, a CHOICE. Divers spend far to much time arguing about what is the right thing to do when there are several right answers. Even diving in the same place I've seen doubles, ponies, and singles. They all came back alive because they all work. The level of risk you take and how you deal with it are your choice. Make sure that what you do is not stupid or for no reason and the rest works itself out. Your brain is the best safety device you have, use it often and use it well.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Good points Yoda.

 

[John_B]

If you had taken the time to read the thread I am hoping you would have understood it......

He was, rather gently, pointing out that you have some large assumptions and conclusions already baked into your thinking process. And he's challenging you to think past your assumptions and conclusions to see the problem from another perspective.

FWIW, I'm chiming in here because there was a time when I was a new diver that I thought this through in exactly the way you are now. All I will add is that there is some good advice being given here, its probably worth taking the time to understand where its coming from.

 

[Diver Dennis]

He was, rather gently, pointing out that you have some large assumptions and conclusions already baked into your thinking process. And he's challenging you to think past your assumptions and conclusions to see the problem from another perspective.

Well John, if you would have read Perrone's post carefully you would have understood that he was saying that as a recreational diver a pony is not required and that it would indeed be "extra" gas if a recreational diver were carrying a pony. I do understand that he was describing a thinking diver and that as such that diver would not get into a situation where a pony would be required. Iain pointed out that if one does carry a pony that you should practice deploying it.

Edit: Missed your edit.

 

[Darnold9999]

I am one of those divers that carries a pony on every dive, I am also a photographer that takes whatever time I need to get the shot I want. I also travel to various parts of the world as a single diver and end up being buddied with whoever is available - or nobody if I can convince the operator to let me go solo.

I view all the dives I do as solo dives, and want a bail out bottle to allow me to survive an equipment failure not to extend a dive. While a perfect buddy would be a better solution, in the world I travel in, that buddy does not exist. So I feel it is entirely up to me to be responsible for keeping me alive.

Have never had to use it, and have never had my equipment fail to the point where I couldn't get air. Sling it and don't even notice it in the water unless I am right on the bottom. I have managed to run out of air once, but it had nothing to do with paying attention or keeping enough reserve - it was the one time I have had to use the reserve.

I take the point re doubles, but while there is a significant increase in reserve gas and redundancy in doubles there is also a huge inconvenience factor. I see many people much younger than I struggling to lift them and getting out of the water with doubles strapped on is just not going to happen for me. Why are doubles so much better than a pony? Yes there is more redundant gas, but exactly how much more do you really need? The answer is of course as much as you need to finish the dive. Unfortunately you never really know how much that is going to be. Get yourself entangled solo and you could need a very very large supply.:coffin:

A pony is really only going to resolve one failure - unexpected loss of primary gas. If something goes wrong and I can't get air from my primary tank, I can switch to the pony and surface. A remote but possible risk. If you are trying to solve any other problem - IMHO you need better gas managment skills, a better buddy or doubles.

If you want to dive with a pony I would, I get comments all the time about how it is not really needed on "this dive". My response is always - I "always" carry it so I will be carrying on this dive as well.

 

[PerroneFord]

A pony is really only going to resolve one failure - unexpected loss of primary gas. If something goes wrong and I can't get air from my primary tank, I can switch to the pony and surface. A remote but possible risk. If you are trying to solve any other problem - IMHO you need better gas managment skills, a better buddy or doubles.

That is the crux of the matter laid bare. If someone says that they understand their issues, and wants to carry a pony as a backup to primary gas, then I say have at it. Doubles may be an ideal solution, but they are not always feasible, particularly for those flying.

If you've got needs underwater (photo, video, survey, etc.) and feel that you need a hedge against the increased risk, and can't do doubles, the redundant bottle begins to look like a decent solution. It's not extra gas, it's a safety margin against potential failure.

Seayoda is exactly correct. It's a choice. And for those divers who choose that path, they shouldn't be made to feel it's a poor one necessarily. I never intended to have my comments do so. Only to stimulate thought and discussion with the original poster. Having done that, I wished him well.

To answer Darnold's question about why doubles are better than a pony, I feel they have several advantages. One is that the gas in them can be used independently or together. Another is that you don't have to "deploy" it to use them. You monitor the breathing supply in one place unlike a pony or other redundant supply. You also test the ability to breathe that redundant gas all dive so there are no surprises should the need truly arise to use it. Obviously, these are just my views and no more or less valid than other views. And the point about doubles being difficult to carry and deal with is not lost on me. They are great in the water, but can be a royal pain on land. Fortunately, I don't spend a lot of time on the surface in them compared to time in the water.

 

[Nailer99]

When I dove with a single tank, I started carrying an Al40, slung in front of me, cave style, and I loved it- I tried carrying it on my back, attached to my main tank, and I really didn't like it that way. Slung off your D rings, it almost disappears, it's not in the way, or cumbersome, in the water at all. But it's a totally independant source of breathing gas- probably enough bail out to get a single diver to the surface from ~130 fsw, with a safety stop. If I ever go back to diving Open Circuit again, I will defenitely be carrying a 40cf with me.

 

[gcbryan]

Doubles are a more elegant solution but are less practical in many situations. Doubles are usually used when the diver has a real need for them in some circumstances and therefore has them around and uses them in other less pressing circumstances.

If you aren't planning on long bottom times at depth involving deco then they aren't nearly as elegant a solution as simply slinging a pony bottle.

Doubles usually require the dedication of two tanks just for that purpose which requires the purchase of additional tanks if you ever want to dive using single tanks. This means more VIP's and hydro's as well.

Moving doubles around in an out of a car trunk is not a small feat nor is getting them in to a dive shop for fills.

Rocky shore entries are much harder in doubles as well.

In an emergency, doubles require isolating the proper post much like using a pony requires making sure it is turned on. Using a pony doesn't require changing one's diving style in the way that diving doubles does.

Using a pony bottle (correctly) fills in the gap between shallow single tank dives and deeper dives with longer bottom times. It is practical for deeper dives with shorter bottom times. If you have a great buddy, it doesn't impact the dive at all to sling a pony. If your buddy doesn't meet your expectations having the pony can be a good thing. Even if your buddy does meet your expectations it can still be a good thing.