The Octopus Conundrum

[MXGratefulDiver]

Somebody who only stays flat like in a skydiver position the entire dive and uses a wing to ascend and descend like an "elevator" is static orientation. This is what was always explained to me as "proper trim". I know a guy who didn't pass fundies because he got out of trim during a valve drill in the pool. So in this case "perfect trim" meant flat, as in put a level on him and look at the bubble.

But that's not the correct definition of "proper trim" ... it is exactly what you first described - making the "smallest hole" in the water as you move forward.

The guy doing a valve drill isn't moving ... and therefore he's "static", and the correct term to describe his position in the water would be "orientation". The point of that exercise is to show appropriate body control while you're task-loaded ... it really has nothing to do with trim, which is as you say "dynamic".

Cave divers and wreck divers frequently have to orient themselves to match the orientation of whatever passage they happen to be swimming in. Maintaining trim in that case is dictated by the shape of the structure.

Ascending and descending in a horizontal position serves a different purpose ... it's just much easier to control your ascent/descent rate in that position, while maintaining eye contact with both your buddy and the bottom. People who descend vertically tend to do so by making themselves negatively buoyant and controlling their descent rate by finning. Where I live, that's a great way to blow out the vis before you even begin the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DaleC]

Dan, I was only referring to the point that someone failed fundies because they went "out of trim" doing a drill. Depending on the pass being sought, and the variance, that would be expected. Though I suspect it would be more of a do over or provisional pass if that was the only problem exhibited.

I also orient in the direction of travel and usually duck dive to descend (I don't understand feet first at all). I usually ascent up slope so orient myself that way and will move horizontal near stops, though this has more to do with the fact that I vent via my butt valve than anything else. Mostly my orientation/trim has to do with what/how I am videoing, just as a spearo's has to do with what they are hunting.

But again, to be fair to the GUE crowd. The standard they are aiming at is exploration level penetration technique. They don't cap their expectations at what is needed for spearo or recreational dives. They are also one of the few agencies that have a skills development framework post course so one would probably see members training more than others and attempting to attain positioning beyond that which might be "needed" for the conditions they are in.

Not a cheer leader but I think observations should be measured within an accurate context.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Dale, that is not the gripe being discussed....that is common sense.
The issue would be body orientation while swimming and going up or down. Its about drag and effectiveness for getting to a spot quickly and efficiently.
However, I don't know of any GUE mandate that prevents a diver from pointing down straight to bottom if that is the need to reach a point effectively--or to use a 45 degree up angle to get to the side of a ship, and to have the body at this angle.
What we may be seeing, is "some" GUE's, that have gone overboard trying to appear to be in trim--to "look pretty", but have forgotten about the real objective.

It's just "some" though, because I have dived with plenty of GUE divers that are excellent in the water, and that don't do the nonsense.


As a tangent....the BEST diver I have ever dived with in my life, George Irvine, began as a spear fisherman.....then became WKPP trained by Parker Turner, and ultimately derived DIR from all his experiences and the wealth of great diving talent around him......And while George was ocean tech diving with us during our big DIR push in late 90's, his trim was what Eric and I are talking about.....he would point where he would go , but be flat when it was best to be flat. Whatever was BEST for the spot he was in. Trim was a tool.

That's pretty much all I'm saying.
That's also why I think it's so important for pre-scuba divers to have a full skin/free diving education and skills, but as we all know they eliminated that step. Now scuba has taken on it's own morphed world and it's own way of doing things which doesn't always include the best streamlining/slipstream configurations and techniques.
As far as the DIR thing. Yes, I do know a guy who didn't get a tech pass in doubles because he got out of trim trying to perform skills. I don't know where DIR started as far as you guys are concerned, but I do know how it got morphed into what it became on the west coast starting with MHK, Walker, and the rest of those guys. Beto in the Bay Area is the one BTW that didn't pass the guy I know, but I wasn't there so I don't know the details.
But from what I know of the guy he's pretty good in the water (I've dove with him) so it must have been something pretty minor to make him not pass.
Getting back to trim. Somehow I'm not getting a convincing mental image of a diver in a drysuit, long hose, doubles, stage bottles, or in sidemount, hanging in a skydiver position with arms forward, knees bent up and modified frog kicking doing anything but staying flat. I don't visualize them pointing their bodies like a torpedo towards the direction of travel. In any videos I see they always appear to be hanging by a perfect center balance point by a string above and never deviating from that. That's what led me to believe that that is what "perfect trim" meant since that's all I ever saw...and that's all they ever talked about. Maybe you guys had a much more dynamic approach being that you were actually using the configuration as you designed it, whereas these people out here use the configuration as they were told, and in open water areas with no obstructions.
The only exception I see in videos is when they are being drug around by a scooter.
It would be very interesting to see what changes have taken place from where you guys started with the school, to see where it ended up/what it morphed into in some parts of the world now. No matter how standardized something is supposed to be it will still change every time it's passed on. The secret whispered in an ear and passed on in a circle until in gets back to the original person is a great example.

Getting back to the original post, I'm starting to use only one regulator now since there is no one to give a second one to.
Dive gear, if kept in pristine condition, is more reliable than many other things that could lead to my death much quicker and easier in everyday life so I don't worry about it.

 

[Nemrod]

Interesting turn. Me, I see no point in wiggling about on my belly like pollywogs supported by a gas bag to control my up and down. I am not skydiving, I am SCUBA diving. That said there are very few times, if any, that a SCUBA diver need be vertical and in particular if they are vertical as a result of water walking.

So, I was looking for my computer quick reference cards when I realized I had stowed them as page markers in the SDI Solo text. So, to quote, their stance on the octopus conundrum, the context is following a discussion on redundant supplies;

"It is important to realize that the solo diver does not need any other type of redundant regulator like an octopus or air2. The reason is if there was ever a problem, the solo diver would just go to their back up system. By having an octopus or air2, the solo diver has two problems they would not need to deal with if they didn't have those pieces of equipment: An unnecessary failure point and extra drag from the equipment they don't need."

So there you have the opinion of SDI.

N

 

[DaleC]

Would they not say having a pony (with a reg to donate) is the same as having an octopus? Or a spare air to breath so one could donate the primary (Sorry, I had to - the thread w a s getting a little boring).

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Would they not say having a pony (with a reg to donate) is the same as having an octopus? Or a spare air to breath so one could donate the primary (Sorry, I had to - the thread w a s getting a little boring).

Do the Spare Airs come with Octo's? True redundancy right?

 

[danvolker]

Or a spare air to breath so one could donate the primary .

Step by step...inch by inch.....Slowly I turned.....

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Interesting turn. Me, I see no point in wiggling about on my belly like pollywogs supported by a gas bag to control my up and down. I am not skydiving, I am SCUBA diving. That said there are very few times, if any, that a SCUBA diver need be vertical and in particular if they are vertical as a result of water walking.

So, I was looking for my computer quick reference cards when I realized I had stowed them as page markers in the SDI Solo text. So, to quote, their stance on the octopus conundrum, the context is following a discussion on redundant supplies;

"It is important to realize that the solo diver does not need any other type of redundant regulator like an octopus or air2. The reason is if there was ever a problem, the solo diver would just go to their back up system. By having an octopus or air2, the solo diver has two problems they would not need to deal with if they didn't have those pieces of equipment: An unnecessary failure point and extra drag from the equipment they don't need."

So there you have the opinion of SDI.

N

They are really reaching when they mention the drag of an octopus (or an Air 2) relative to a scuba diver as a whole.. It is stupid really.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

They are really reaching when they mention the drag of an octopus (or an Air 2) relative to a scuba diver as a whole.. It is stupid really.

In the minimalist world it's a sum total of all things that lead to unneeded extra gear that can lead to unneeded drag.
That's what drives the elimination process rather than the acquisition process.

 

[MB NZ]

Good opening question and what a lot of answers which I will confess, I haven't read in full.

I dive solo nearly all the time, my redundant gas source is a pony, either 3 litres or 6 litres depending on the dive.

On balance, I have decided not to have an octopus. An octopus is not without risk; there is a risk that it might free flow. However small this risk is, why carry something I don't need?