The Octopus Conundrum

[Shinythings]

Apparently you don't know many good recreational dive instructors then ... because anyone who doesn't teach proper trim isn't a very good instructor, and any instructor who can't maintain proper trim while keeping an eye on their students isn't skilled enough to teach scuba ... that's just basic skills and has nothing whatsoever to do with tech diving.

I'm not sure what that has to do with solo diving, with or without an octopus ... but it indicates someone taking a position without really understanding it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Being "in trim" completely prevents you from looking behind you. To look behind you your either doing a complete helicopter turn (which is just stupid and a waste of time... my whole point to start with), or you need to go "out of trim". Being "out of trim" does not mean your have poor buoyancy... it just means you are in a more flexible position to watch students and attend to any problems they may have. Stopping every 10 second to do a helicopter turn and check on students is stupid. That is why any good instructor I've seen rolls on their side to check on students (ie. not in trim).

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It appear we have a different idea of what "trim" is.

 

[danvolker]

Being "in trim" completely prevents you from looking behind you. To look behind you your either doing a complete helicopter turn (which is just stupid and a waste of time... my whole point to start with), or you need to go "out of trim". Being "out of trim" does not mean your have poor buoyancy... it just means you are in a more flexible position to watch students and attend to any problems they may have. Stopping every 10 second to do a helicopter turn and check on students is stupid. That is why any good instructor I've seen rolls on their side to check on students (ie. not in trim).

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It appear we have a different idea of what "trim" is.

Which brings up a POINT...I don't think instructors SHOULD "lead" a dive from in front of several students, creating a scenario where they need to keep turning around behind themselves....
The better alternative, is setting up all students side by side, and being able to continuously scan all students, how they are doing, and even have this in peripheral vision. You immediately know if someone has a problem, or is falling behind....With the guy that thinks he is the "Leader", making his students "chase" him, he only gets a snap shot each time he spins around and sees who is still following him. its a great way to force a student to run out of air, and it is a bad way to train divers for when they dive with others--as someday they will want to "lead" a dive

 

[RBMcNeil]

Over the years I have gone from octo in the BC pocket...octo orotund the neck...and now thinking about dropping the octo all together. I really do not see the necessity since I always carry a pony with a third second stage.

 

[Shinythings]

Sure, works great in warm water where the viz is great, but here in the cold water instructors are constantly teaching in less than 15 ft of viz. It's easier to have them follow along a wall.

And with the new OW course all students lead the last dive so I don't see a reason for them to lead the other 3 dives as well.

Anyway, this is getting off topic...

 

[Storker]

I don't know.... But when I was in Bonaire in Feb , I watched 2 couples get in the water at oil slick with more crap hanging from them that I thought possible... It was noon and blue skies... They each had a big ass cave reel, 2 flash lights, SMB hanging from D-rings , dive knifes. Plus EMT shears and to top it off each had a spare-air....

I had to bite my lip, Not to break out in laughter...

Come over here and watch me get in the water.

I dive the same setup on more or less every dive. Single tank Hogarthian setup with bungeed octo and 1.5m long hose, two knives (large on my left calf, small on my waistband), two lights (main on my left hand, backup on my harness), a dSMB rigged with a spool in my thigh pocket and usually a camera rig and/or a catch bag. A double-ender usually dangles from one of my D-rings, and it has proven useful enough times that I like to have it there.

You won't have to bite your lip. I won't be particularly offended if you laugh, because my setup works for me, and I like to rig up the same way on every dive. It helps my muscle memory to stay current.

And if you want to tell me which parts of my gear are superfluous, I'm all ears...


--
Sent from my Android phone
Typos are a feature, not a bug

 

[danvolker]

Sure, works great in warm water where the viz is great, but here in the cold water instructors are constantly teaching in less than 15 ft of viz. It's easier to have them follow along a wall.

And with the new OW course all students lead the last dive so I don't see a reason for them to lead the other 3 dives as well.

Someone was saying that an instructor could not teach in trim..horizontal, because they had to spin around and see behind them so often for their students.
To me that is incorrect instructing. 6 divers swimming in a line, with a leader, will take much more visibility to be able to see all of them, than if the instructor was in the center of a single row of a swimming group...With all swimming side by side you don't span as much distance, and this is better for low vis or high vis.
Even in Palm Beach we have low vis conditions to teach in.....with all the pathetic instructors that come with big classes to the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park, all the vertical swimmers being taught badly, takes the vis down to below 8 feet on many weekends. So the bad classes, force the good classes, to be taught with the ability to deal with poor vis quite effectively.
While the real issue is that over half of all instructors should be fired for incompetency, the next best take-away, is dealing with horizontal trim for all skills, along with never allowing vertical treading of water in a class, and as this post relates to the "Octopus Conundrum", too many instructors have no sense of gear configuration--good or bad....dangling octopuses are typically the fault of the bad instructor.....See the horror:
[video]https://youtu.be/LGcGU-I2jK4[/video]

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Being "in trim" completely prevents you from looking behind you. To look behind you your either doing a complete helicopter turn (which is just stupid and a waste of time... my whole point to start with), or you need to go "out of trim". Being "out of trim" does not mean your have poor buoyancy... it just means you are in a more flexible position to watch students and attend to any problems they may have. Stopping every 10 second to do a helicopter turn and check on students is stupid. That is why any good instructor I've seen rolls on their side to check on students (ie. not in trim).

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It appear we have a different idea of what "trim" is.

First off, my students are rarely behind me ... if I can't see them it's tough to evaluate what they're doing. When we're doing static drills, I'm facing them ... when we're doing dynamic drills, my positioning depends entirely on what it is I'm evaluating. I may be above them, behind them, or to the side of them ... but if I'm in front of them I'm facing the student and back-kicking so I can see what they're doing. If you're "leading", and need to get out of trim in order to see your students I'd recommend re-evaluating why you're putting yourself in that position in the first place ... particularly if you're talking about OW students, since your standards dictate that you be in "control" of your students at all times.

It appears we have a different idea of what good instruction is too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sometimes I like to do goofy stuff like do my safety stop laying face up perfectly flat with my hands behind my head and my feet crossed like I'm laying in a lounger or hammock. I blow air exhaust smoke rings and I like to look up at the receding kelp stalks and how the sunlight lights up the leaves on the surface making them a brilliant golden Amber color, and the sun making rays which look like light sabres. I casually raise my arm to glance at my BT like it was a watch and am reluctant to go when time is up. If I was flat face down I would miss all that.
Is that considered out of trim?

---------- Post added April 20th, 2015 at 10:18 PM ----------

Come over here and watch me get in the water.

I dive the same setup on more or less every dive. Single tank Hogarthian setup with bungeed octo and 1.5m long hose, two knives (large on my left calf, small on my waistband), two lights (main on my left hand, backup on my harness), a dSMB rigged with a spool in my thigh pocket and usually a camera rig and/or a catch bag. A double-ender usually dangles from one of my D-rings, and it has proven useful enough times that I like to have it there.

You won't have to bite your lip. I won't be particularly offended if you laugh, because my setup works for me, and I like to rig up the same way on every dive. It helps my muscle memory to stay current.

And if you want to tell me which parts of my gear are superfluous, I'm all ears...


--
Sent from my Android phone
Typos are a feature, not a bug

I'm not laughing at all, if it works for you then dive it.



...But I still say muscles don't have the ability to remember things.

 

[danvolker]

Personally. I am going to say that trim is important , "when you are swimming some place, and you want to get there efficiently, and or you don't want to silt up the bottom".

If you are NOT trying to get anywhere, and you are no where near the bottom, and you are not doing a team based deco stop --and not really even required to do a safety stop because you have just done a light recreational dive.....then trim is not really relevant. Trim is like "performance drive" for a sports car, or "4 wheel drive" for an SUV or Jeep....

There are divers that want to be in trim at all moments throughout a dive, much like Runway models that want to look good at all times for the paparazzi.

I can't say it's wrong, but once you have totally solid trim and propulsion skills, I would say be in trim when you should be, and not when you don't need to be.
As inane as this sounds, there are plenty that think it is a cardinal sin to be out of trim, ever.
I think that has more to do with the horrifically bad trim ( when these divers should have been in trim) that was so common in the 90's and up to a few years ago....and now is still a bit of an issue among many dive instructors that should know better. It could be that some divers want to be sure that no one would ever mistake them for the horrifically bad trimmed and rototilling crowd of divers...and maybe they go a bit overboard with this....

 

[archer1960]

Being "in trim" completely prevents you from looking behind you. To look behind you your either doing a complete helicopter turn (which is just stupid and a waste of time... my whole point to start with), or you need to go "out of trim". Being "out of trim" does not mean your have poor buoyancy... it just means you are in a more flexible position to watch students and attend to any problems they may have. Stopping every 10 second to do a helicopter turn and check on students is stupid. That is why any good instructor I've seen rolls on their side to check on students (ie. not in trim).

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It appear we have a different idea of what "trim" is.

Yeah. To me being in trim means that your weight and buoyancy are such that you can position yourself any way you want in the water without needing to exert any effort to stay there. If you want to be horizontal, then you are, and you can hover without moving. If you want to do a headstand, you can, again with no motion required. My basic OW instructor did exactly that, in order to demonstrate proper buoyancy and trim. He would lay on his side facing us in mid-water, or look back at us following him by turning head-down vertically in the water. It made us realize just what what possible with proper skills.
W