The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Flytyer]

I read the letter you referred to in your reply. Did "Genesis" ever get any reply to the letter? I would like to see the reply. I will just for grins and giggles, contact "Scubapro" this upcoming week and inquire about there pricing policies. I will attempt to phone them, all though I havent got the number. I am guessing it cant be hard to come by. I will also send them a certified letter requesting a reply about this practice. If indeed this does occur and they are willing to admit to it, I will forward all matter to the State Attorney General. I like you believe in fairness. I am just getting into this hobby. If they are involved in any thing similar to this, the best way to hurt them is to not purchase that companys product. It is them causing the problem, not the LDS.


-Flytyer
in like the wind and out like a light

 

[cyklon_300]

hundreds of $ at the LDS. $40 for a fill card, $45 for a hood that I needed asap, a valve rebuild, a reg rebuild, etc. etc.

If I try on something for size and end up buying online it's not a huge ethical dilemma, both places are getting my cash.

 

[wrongkey]

I'm not wild about playing along with a price fixing scheme that has me targeted as the sap. Scuba Pro, for one, will terminate a dealer that discounts more than 10%. The LDS doesn't have a choice; they either play along, or they get fired as an authorized dealer. Given that dealers of other lines also typically display the price flexibility of a vending machine, I suspect that's the case with most manufacturers. For example, SeaQuest is the authorized distributor of Apex regs in the U.S., and the price is the same at every LDS where I've seen them. Technomar is the authorized distributor in Spain, and those Apex regs that come from DiveInn, in Spain, come with paperwork and in a box indicating they were distributed through Technomar. They cost roughly half what they go for locally. I don't like it one bit that the LDS is not free to choose the price at which to sell its goods, but I don't owe it to them to pay extra just because they have an agreement with the manufacturer in restraint of trade.

 

[snobeach]

Flytyer, I think you missed an important point I tried to make before - of course the on-line shops are making a profit. They have to! This just reinforces just how much markup really does exist in this industry . As for price fixing, I brought it up because it is so wrong and it makes me a little nuts. If you can get the interest of the big guys (DA, etc.) that would be great.

Like awap, I am being told the same thing by everybody. Every LDS and every manufactures rep I can find to ask. If it is untrue, they are amazingly consistant in their answers. In fact, I just went to another local shop to inquire there, and the manager there agreed; they, the LDS'S are between a rock and a hard place. He specifically said: If he discounts a Scubapro reg more than 10%, they will pull his dealership franchise. Scubapro has plenty of "company" when it comes to these practices. In general, the manufactures set the MSRP and then they limit (in no uncertain terms) the dealers ability to discount. Wrongkey said it well too, and clearly shares my feelings on this.
Everyone expects the good LDS'S to make a fair profit. Fair being the operative word. Personally, I do try to support them whenever possible and I really do feel they are not the source of this problem. They just get all the grief because they are our interface with the products. Kind of like a waitress taking the heat for a chef. Their hands are tied and they don't like it either!

I do understand why this seems far fetched to a successful/ethical business man like yourself. Amazing but true, this is how this industry seems to work. You mentioned a comparison to the auto industry but this is exactly the opposite. Car dealers can sell for any price (even lose money if they choose) with out risk of irreperably damaging their relationships with suppliers.
So I say - Have at it! Make some waves please. :iwagima:
We will all (consumers and the LDS's) benefit if they are forced to play by the rules. Keep us posted!

 

[wrongkey]

If Scubapro didn't have all that "company" in this scheme, they couldn't do it. But when they're all doing it, you no longer have just one manufacturer's vertical price fixing scheme; you have suppression of competition as to price between manufacturers of competing products. The end result is the same as if they all got together and said, "Guys, lets knock ourselves out competing on features and how we want to brag about our products, but let's all agree that our top of the line offering is going to be within five percent of X dollars, and we'll all make a killing." I'm not saying that happened, but it looks to me like the current operation of the market is exactly the same as if it did.

 

[ABQdiver]

From my point of view, everyone as a point with their comments. Some are not clear or have working knowledge of all the details.

In business, the difference between the cost of goods sold and what those goods cost to produce or supply is not all "profit". The cost of overhead is in that amount and with all the insurance (the list of required insurance is staggering), rent, salaries etc can add up quickly. So to say the LDS (or most other business) are raking in the "profit" is just not accurate.

If the manufactures like ScubaPro are mandating the selling price to retail markets and are arm twisting their downstream to sell at no less than 10% discount, then I think we as divers have another enemy! Boycott the manufactures that push that kind of business model.

I have bought my equipment from both online distributers like LP and DiveInn and have been very satisfied with the results. I have also bought my BC, wetsuit and other things from the LDS because I appreciated the service they provide and want to help support them as well. I especially agree with the point of not trying something on and then buy if online, using the LDS as a dressing room. Not nice! However, that said I can't justify paying $75 for a mask when I can get the same one online for $32.

 

[Flytyer]

I am finding it just unreal that these manufacturers follow this type of practice. I am not saying i do not believe you guys, it is just totally unfair. I actually believe what you are saying ( thought I should clear that Up). I also think that it is totally unfair to not honor the warranty if not sold through an authorized dealer. Why would they even sell it to an unauthorized dealer? I am just guessing that this is where the price differences are coming in. I bet an authorized dealer pays more for warranty coverage through the manufacturer. And probally gets advertising and referral service.

The shocker is just this, I havent even purchased one piece of equipment yet. I am just taking a discover scuba class this wednesday, from what has been a really helpful and nice LDS.

The problem I am having is that I am entering into a hobby that is set up to be unfair to the end user, by the manufacturers. It is also unfair to the LDS.

I can and will pull all the strings that I have available. I have dealt with a local senator on other issues, and he was very helpful.

i guess the smart thing we should all start doing is come up with a list of manufacturers that dont use mafia type business practices.

-Flytyer
you guys/girls are smarter than you think, just reread your posts. You debate very well, not argue. Signs of true thinkers.

 

[Butch103]

raviepoo once bubbled...



Yeah, I agree that it's in poor form to use a LDS as a dressing room and then go buy equipment off the internet. That is why I have done my poking, prodding, handling , and trying on at the shop where I bought my gear.

I tried on my neoprene skin at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my 3mm wetsuit at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my first BC at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my boots and fins at the shop where I bought them.
I hooked my regulator up to a tank and tried it out at the shop where I bought it.

I bought all of this stuff and more at one place - Leisure Pro's brick and mortar retail outlet on West 18th Street. I'm happy to have done this because it saved me a huge pile of money. In fact, the only big ticket purchases that have given me any kind of regret or anxiety are a drysuit and a second BC bought at two different LDS's.

Despite my scuba commerce crimes I have dropped huge piles of money at my preferred local LDS on items that have a smaller profit margin. The scuba industry in 2002 is a service industry. LDSs should service theri customers needs if they want to continue to have customers. If a market is over saturated with shops the less accomodating ones will close. The market is evolving and only the shops that evolve with it will survive.

I wholeheartedly promote buying from the LDS. LP in your case is a bricks and morter LDS......There business may primarily come from online business, but they still are a LDS. Any other shop could promote more online shopping from their shops if they wish, and perhaps become the next "LP".................

 

[MikeFerrara]

LP does not pay the same prices as an lds. They do not buy from the same place. They are not bound by dealer agreements because they are not authorized dealer of most lines. LP does not have the overhead of an lds. LP does not have manufacturers forcing tham to limit the other lines they carry. lp does not have to have diveshop insurance because they are not a dive shop just a shop.

If I sell a product that I am not authorized by the manufacturer to sell, I loose my insurance (if I get cought) This prevents me from looking for the cheapest places to buy. I can only buy from the manufacturer.

We can only service brands that we are authorized to service by the manufacturer. In order to be authorizes by the manufacturer we must play by their rules.

By all means be a smart consumer. But don't believe that the LDS is in control of the situation. The manufacturers are the ones in control. To complain about the LDS and not relay your opinions to SP and aqualung is not only wrong but serves no purpose.

The same is true for the quality of training. Training is shortened in an attempt to meet the quotas of manufacturers. This is how the successful store keeps enough manufacturers to have a good selection and enough to enable them to service many (as apposed to a couple brands) My store will never have a good selection of products because we don't sell enough to buy and keep the dealerships.

To complain about fast cheap training and support aqualung and sp is to be the purist kind of hypocrite. These companies invented and perpetuate the concept.

 

[trymixdiver]

Clarify

I buy a SP reg from LP or DiveInn and i need service on it.

I can take it to an authorized SP dealer for its yearly service with no problems correct? So when does the lack of buying it from a dealer effect me, the gray market buyer?

When there is a recall?
When the body of the 2nd stage cracks?

I can understand the above not being covered, but how would they know that my particular reg is a grey market. What else would not be covered in addition to my 2 items listed above?

Andy

So what exaclty am i losing when i buy online, be it SP or any other brand that doesnt allow those kinda sales.