The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[zboss]

snobeach once bubbled...
Hi All -
I've been following this thread for a while and I too struggle with how to continue supporting the LDS's in my area. Just last year I spent nearly $2,500 equipping myself via an LDS. Soon after I discovered this board and a new world opened up. It was pretty hard to swallow...

I agree with everything you have said here. The manufacturers can either (1) not sell to LeisurePro... or (2) keeping in mind the lifetime parts guarantee that come with a lot of equipment purchased from an LDS - make the cost of replacement parts so prohibitively expensive so that if a part needed to be fixed on a piece of equipment purchased without a manufacturers warranty the consumer would not end up saving any money.

There are a lot of options; ultimately, what is paid for equipment falls squarely in the hands of the people that control the cash and the purchase in the first place - the consumer. There is always the option to not sell equipment at all...

 

[Uncle Pug]

awap once bubbled...
I ended up buying it from the lowest priced dealer, not the one where I made the selection and tried it out.

You are absolutely correct... and I overstated my case evidently...

My contention is only that you do not use the LDS's inventory and employee time with the intention of buying from the competition... though I am sure not all would agree with me in this.

 

[zboss]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...


I'm not an employee of any part of the scuba diving world - except where PADI considers me a "professional member".

I have received key man deals - several of them. I hope your not implying "I can't get your deals diverbuoy so it's unfair that you criticise me for going on-line to find some discount." Bottom line on this - I didn't say don't go on-line. I did not say it's bad to look for good deals at your LDS. I did not say pay full price and never buy anything on sale. My message is clear. I have 2 items I got a key man deal on UK HID Light Cannon and my regulator Atomic T1/T2 X. I own a couple of other regulators and primary lights I paid full price for. If you hang your hat on this, you've missed the point of my little soapbox speech.

I do not own a dive shop.


Where did you get proof of this? How do you draw this conclusion? Do you think the city will step in and provide grants, or perhaps your dreaming that volunteers will step up and donate their time and money to sustain diving for you personally?

Five other posters here have said something in the way of a complaint about their LDS. Great - talk to them about your frustrations - OR here's an idea - switch shops. But whatever you do make sure your money doesn't go solely to Internet Dive Shops - especially for major ticket items.

Hm... Lake Rawlings, Just about every live-aboard, every single dive operation I have ever seen the caribbean, many locations along the Jersey Shore... get real... do you think that the dive operators wouldn't go so far as to even offer FREE fills just to dive on their boats? Commerce changes and those companies that currently own the lions share of the money are always afraid of losing it... some companies litigate, others adapt and become innovatove, but in all cases money moves from one hand to another - that's part of what makes commerce fun.

 

[zboss]

I can think of one really good reason to buy from an LDS and not online... and this may seem bas ackwards but, if you spend tens-of-thousands of dollars a year on equipment or if you are part of a dive club associated with a store. Maybe.

 

[DiverBuoy]

zboss once bubbled...
Commerce changes and those companies that currently own the lions share of the money are always afraid of losing it... some companies litigate, others adapt and become innovatove, but in all cases money moves from one hand to another - that's part of what makes commerce fun.

jonnythan once bubbled...
I thought you *told* us specifically not to buy from online shops. Ever.

All examples of exactly what I did not say or imply. Please reread my posts. Summary:

Immutable statements of DiverBuoy:
1. Insist on competitive prices from your LDS.
2. Buy smart - look for discounts, sale prices, trade-ins, and other deals. Pit one shop vs. another. Switch LDS's if you're unhappy.
3. Innovative dive shops among other things sell equipment online. Buy from these websites - NOT PURE ON-LINE SHOPS with no brick-and-mortar component. I am not saying "Don't buy online" I never said that from the start (please re-read).
4. The scenario we were debating is the long term future a "what if ...future": IF pure price driven consumption of dive goods from online dive shops resulted in the total closure of the LDS. Therefore, would we all then have to dive boats and resorts? In such a future regional quarries, coves, lakes, and beaches would require personal ownership of a compressor - local compressor huts charging double figures to fill a tank.
5. Hope this isn't news to anyone - LDSs don't even break on compressor cost of ownership and maintenance - by charging you for filling your tanks. And most shops give this type of thing because they can make it up in equipment sales.
6. There is a finely balanced symbiotic relationship between the dive consumer "using" the local dive shop to try stuff out (assuming dive shops exist purely as dressing rooms) but would never receive the consumers business. This consumer simply turns around and plunks down money at the Internet Dive Shop who is getting like 2% over cost.

Several of you defend - there will always be a place to fill. That is shops will stay open even if the only money you or any other diver spends at the LDS is for maintenance, training and fills - this is ludicrous.

Even if the LDS charged twice the prices Uncle Pug was complaining about - eventually this will collapse too. It's like trying to replace the tube in an old TV. A new one costs less. The product essentially becomes disposable. A future where divers dispose of anything that needs maintentenance no matter how major the piece of gear is. Why because it won't be worth the labor costs and parts - it will be cheaper just to go online and buy another.

Personally, because I am really passionate about exploring this topic the most significant thing I've seen posted here is the tangent dealing with the equipment manufacturers. Very interesting! I'm one of the first to jump on their cases - almost everyone of them deserve consumer wrath.

 

[raviepoo]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...

3. Innovative dive shops among other things sell equipment online. Buy from these websites - NOT PURE ON-LINE SHOPS with no brick-and-mortar component. I am not saying "Don't buy online" I never said that from the start (please re-read).

Yeah, I agree that it's in poor form to use a LDS as a dressing room and then go buy equipment off the internet. That is why I have done my poking, prodding, handling , and trying on at the shop where I bought my gear.

I tried on my neoprene skin at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my 3mm wetsuit at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my first BC at the shop where I bought it.
I tried on my boots and fins at the shop where I bought them.
I hooked my regulator up to a tank and tried it out at the shop where I bought it.

I bought all of this stuff and more at one place - Leisure Pro's brick and mortar retail outlet on West 18th Street. I'm happy to have done this because it saved me a huge pile of money. In fact, the only big ticket purchases that have given me any kind of regret or anxiety are a drysuit and a second BC bought at two different LDS's.

Despite my scuba commerce crimes I have dropped huge piles of money at my preferred local LDS on items that have a smaller profit margin. The scuba industry in 2002 is a service industry. LDSs should service theri customers needs if they want to continue to have customers. If a market is over saturated with shops the less accomodating ones will close. The market is evolving and only the shops that evolve with it will survive.

 

[joens]

If buying online will make LDS's go out of biz lets all go out tomorrow and buy something online. when I started diving I bought all my gear from the LDS. I eventually became a divemaster to get the training to repair my own regs .because the more I hung around the LDS I discovered the guys doing the reg repairs were idiots I would not have trusted them to put gas in my car and these guys are repairing life support equipment.then once I decided to put H valves on 3 of my single tanks I ordered one from the LDS first the instructor didnt know what an H valve was so I had to show him in the dealer price list in the process I saw what the dealer price was less than 100$
they called me back and said they couldnt get it for 2 months so I ordered 2 online one from extreme exposure and one from Marvel Underwater equipment .both of those came within 3 days and were 160$ each . I thought it was a fair price then ages later when the LDS finally got mine in it was 230$ with my divemaster discount . and the more I learn the more I find out a lot of the info I got from the LDS's was incorrect if not outright lies.when all the LDS's go out of business those of you who dont have compressors can buy the compressors from the bank. air fills will always be available somewhere .who wants to go to an LDS for an airfill any way

 

[Flytyer]

Again as being a business owner maybe I can clear something up.

Again I have nothing at all to do with the dive industry. But I can tell you that if the manufacturers are telling the wholesalers and retialers a price that a product can be sold at, it is illegal. That is called price fixing. It cant be done, and probally is not being done. They can suggest (MSRP) a price for a product to be sold at. It is usually an absurd price shown to the final retailer as a sales pitch to inform them at the wonderful markup that can be made on that particular product. Most normal retailers attempt to sell below MSRP. In some environments products are sold at or above MSRP. That comes down to local competition and supply and demand. A great example is the Honda Odyessy MIni Van. It sells at or above full retail every time. At least a new one does. Most local dive shops I am guessing will have added costs you may take for granted. Im guessing most offer scuba classes. Can you begin to imagine the insurance costs (liability) to cover all you guys/girls. My insurance policy is 1 million dollars of liabilty at my store. It is a zero risk environment. Not to include insurance on my employees, builiding, etc.... Now in all fairness it was and is my choice to be in business and these are all costs that have to be paid for.

Ok here goes, I am willing to bet that most if not all of you have a job that in one way or another I could get whatever service or product cheaper either on the internet, or somewhere else. What makes you so special that I need to get it from you.

The point is, LDS's are no different from the rest of us. We are all here to make money. And trust me they are not getting rich off of just you. If you dont think the online stores are making money off of you, you are crazy. Do you think they are just bing friendly?

-Flytyer
attack if you like, you wont hurt my feelings, I am used to dealing with the general public

 

[joens]

I tend to agree with flytyers comments I dont think there is price fixing I suspect leisure Pro is paying the same for what they sell as the LDS's are paying I know online shops are making a markup to earn a profit [they are not charities] I do not have unlimited money. My diving depends on getting the most I can for what I spend.Early in this thread Raviepoo described a fictional dive shop .if there were such a thing in my area I would spend a good dealof money with them. I entirely reject the idea that I should support any business simply because they exist.If a LDS or any other business wants my support they should deserve it ,they need to give a good product at a reasonable price I am not saying that lowest price always wins .There are things that are worth paying more for such as knowledge [being able to get questions answered ]unfortunately for the LDS's I can find more of that from the online dealers too

 

[redacted]

Flytyer once bubbled...
Again as being a business owner maybe I can clear something up.

Again I have nothing at all to do with the dive industry. But I can tell you that if the manufacturers are telling the wholesalers and retialers a price that a product can be sold at, it is illegal. That is called price fixing. It cant be done, and probally is not being done. They can suggest (MSRP) a price for a product to be sold at. It is usually an absurd price shown to the final retailer as a sales pitch to inform them at the wonderful markup that can be made on that particular product. Most normal retailers attempt to sell below MSRP. In some environments products are sold at or above MSRP. That comes down to local competition and supply and demand. A great example is the Honda Odyessy MIni Van. It sells at or above full retail every time. At least a new one does. Most local dive shops I am guessing will have added costs you may take for granted. Im guessing most offer scuba classes. Can you begin to imagine the insurance costs (liability) to cover all you guys/girls. My insurance policy is 1 million dollars of liabilty at my store. It is a zero risk environment. Not to include insurance on my employees, builiding, etc.... Now in all fairness it was and is my choice to be in business and these are all costs that have to be paid for.

Ok here goes, I am willing to bet that most if not all of you have a job that in one way or another I could get whatever service or product cheaper either on the internet, or somewhere else. What makes you so special that I need to get it from you.

The point is, LDS's are no different from the rest of us. We are all here to make money. And trust me they are not getting rich off of just you. If you dont think the online stores are making money off of you, you are crazy. Do you think they are just bing friendly?

-Flytyer
attack if you like, you wont hurt my feelings, I am used to dealing with the general public

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14337

If it isn't price fixing then all the authorized scubapro dealers I have talked to are telling me the same lie about being restricted to a maximum discount of 10%.