The Great local dive shop vs. online debate
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Mike: I'm upset at the fact that I walk into an LDS to spend money and I get the third degree from a guy I just met 30 seconds ago about how bad of a person I am for buying online. I'm upset at the fact that if I even attempt to save money I get the LDS "who will fill your tanks" rhetoric. And I am pretty certain these same people are in the car dealership haggling just as hard as I do when I go to by a car. But by their own arguement they should just pay the sticker price with no questions. That's where I get upset at. I guess that's why I am a Republican. 
MikeF I was just giving this post a browse and you are coming off as very hostile, and I am not sure if you mean to or not.
I dont want start a flame war, but some of the comments on your first post come across as ignorant to me.
To many people diving who shouldn't be? Just what kind of people should'nt be? Should only DIR diver be diving? PADI divers? How about only Navy combat diver grads? How about only people who can swim a 6 minute 500, and run 3 miles in under 18 minutes? What you are saying is elitist crap.
People have to start somewhere. DIR skills are not acquired over night, they take lots of practice. Some DIR skills are not needed at all in many diving envirorments. Diving should be accessable to all types of people. Its not rocket science.
Diving has an incredably low injury / mortality rate. Something must be working. In line skating is more dangerous than diving.
The retail industry for diving is broken. It has been for as long as I can remember. It's a free market, people are going to use the place that gives the most value for the money. Is advice on gear, the ability to try things on, emergency gear replacement, etc a value? Of course it is. Does it level off a 100% markup? Probably not.
LDS owner are in a tuff position because the manufacturers are playing hard ball with them, and the profit margin is narrow. Like any free market, many places will not make it. Most dont deserve to. Thats not the consumers problem. LDS owners are locked into a bad business plan. Eventually the new world economy of online shops will break most LDS's. The distributer and manufacturers are to blame, not the consumer.
When I am in a dive shop and they ask me where I got my gear and I got online, I tell them. If they get cranky about it, I laugh in their face. If they want me to spend any money at all there, the would be smart to accept it and do what they can to win my business. LDS owners need our money, but unless they show me a 501C3, I am not giving them anything.
I dont want start a flame war, but some of the comments on your first post come across as ignorant to me.
To many people diving who shouldn't be? Just what kind of people should'nt be? Should only DIR diver be diving? PADI divers? How about only Navy combat diver grads? How about only people who can swim a 6 minute 500, and run 3 miles in under 18 minutes? What you are saying is elitist crap.
People have to start somewhere. DIR skills are not acquired over night, they take lots of practice. Some DIR skills are not needed at all in many diving envirorments. Diving should be accessable to all types of people. Its not rocket science.
Diving has an incredably low injury / mortality rate. Something must be working. In line skating is more dangerous than diving.
The retail industry for diving is broken. It has been for as long as I can remember. It's a free market, people are going to use the place that gives the most value for the money. Is advice on gear, the ability to try things on, emergency gear replacement, etc a value? Of course it is. Does it level off a 100% markup? Probably not.
LDS owner are in a tuff position because the manufacturers are playing hard ball with them, and the profit margin is narrow. Like any free market, many places will not make it. Most dont deserve to. Thats not the consumers problem. LDS owners are locked into a bad business plan. Eventually the new world economy of online shops will break most LDS's. The distributer and manufacturers are to blame, not the consumer.
When I am in a dive shop and they ask me where I got my gear and I got online, I tell them. If they get cranky about it, I laugh in their face. If they want me to spend any money at all there, the would be smart to accept it and do what they can to win my business. LDS owners need our money, but unless they show me a 501C3, I am not giving them anything.
Mark,
It sounds like you have had a bad experence with a dive shop. We all have to one degree or another. But there are good ones out there.
You are right in that there should be no comments about you being wrong for buying online or from other shops. This is no way to get a customer walking into a shop to want to conduct future business there. There are good shops around and you do get added value for the additional price at some shops. Shop around and find one that you like. If they make you a good offer or add enough value to the transaction to make it worth the while to spend the extra money give them the business.
When I was a purchasing agent I found out that just because someone had the best price didn't necessarly make it the best deal. You also had to figure speed of delivery, future discounts for repeat business, after sale service and a host of other factors to actually find the best deal. Sometimes the lowest price also had the other factors and sometimes not.
I am in no way saying not to buy online, but, don't think all shops are bad. While we all know that not all shops are good, some are great places to do business. You can meet new dive buddies and get invaluable advise from them.
Good luck.
Chad
It sounds like you have had a bad experence with a dive shop. We all have to one degree or another. But there are good ones out there.
You are right in that there should be no comments about you being wrong for buying online or from other shops. This is no way to get a customer walking into a shop to want to conduct future business there. There are good shops around and you do get added value for the additional price at some shops. Shop around and find one that you like. If they make you a good offer or add enough value to the transaction to make it worth the while to spend the extra money give them the business.
When I was a purchasing agent I found out that just because someone had the best price didn't necessarly make it the best deal. You also had to figure speed of delivery, future discounts for repeat business, after sale service and a host of other factors to actually find the best deal. Sometimes the lowest price also had the other factors and sometimes not.
I am in no way saying not to buy online, but, don't think all shops are bad. While we all know that not all shops are good, some are great places to do business. You can meet new dive buddies and get invaluable advise from them.
Good luck.
Chad
If you can believe it - I agree with the above.
Man, when I was walking up to the steps of that shop I was excited. I thought I was walking into an environment where I could meet some people, intoduce myself, "Hi, I'm the new guy taking the DIRF class and I need some gear. No, I can't afford the HID light but how about a spool, a lift bag, and a hood." This didn't happen. It really let the air out of my sails. You know, so far, it feels like joining a fraternity and dealing with hazing all over again. O.K., maybe not that bad.
I hope you find someplace that will provide you with good service and you will enjoy doing business with.
Good Luck.
Chad
Good Luck.
Chad
MartiniTime,
Let me give a quick explanation of my inside view of the dive industry.
The biggest manufactures demand huge volumes or the dealorship goes out the window. Who buys most equipment? new divers. Can you meet these minimums by only selling select products from a given manufacturer? no. You must push the whole line good and bad. In fact, some insist on it. The only way to have enough new divers to sell to is to push them through like cattle. Now, you need tons of instructors who will work very cheap. Why do you think you can still find an OW class for $150. You can work the numbers yourself, this represents a loss of hundreds of dallrs, unless a bunch of equipment is sold. Every weekend I watch instructors drag alternates through the mud. I see their students do the same. I see instructors till the botom. I see their students and graduates swim overweighted, head up, blowing out the vis, draging their equipment, working very hard, breathing very hard. These instructors should not be teaching. Why? They haven't learned to dive yet. When I watch a class and can't tell the instructor an DM from the students, there is a problem. Most prospective students only want a cheap card so they can dive on their Caribbean trip.
You say diving is low injury. I say this is only true because most do canned dives under supervission. When they must plan a dive and make the choices without help they don't do so well. I have seen two divers hauled off in ambulances this year alone. I have seen many other close calls. Rapid ascents due to poor buoyancy control, improper reaction to free flowing regs and dispnea (most likely braught on by Co2 build up). These divers are not trained to dive without a DM.
I don't push DIR. I push good diving. A diver who is not weighted and trimmed correctly with poor buoyancy control is not prepared to respond to a problem or halp a buddy. In fact are making all the mistakes that lead to the problems the minute they enter the water. If it is so low injury why do we so many injured. Many divers don't know what it should look like but the instructor should. Niether the pro or the student is willing to invest the time and effort.
The fact that dive equipment has become a commodity only reinforces and rewards this behavior. I hear so many divers demand lower prices and buy from the very manufacturers that contribute so much to the situation and then complain about their incomplete training. As shops sell to a lower percentage of students the classes will get shorter and more incomplete. The consumer is in the drivers seat and owns part of the problem.
Who shouldn't be diving? All the divers I have rescued. All the divers I have seen hauled off in an ambulance. All the divers who I spot and follow a ways because they look on the verge of real trouble. All the new divers who follow DM's into wrecks at 100 ft without the right equipment or training.
Who shouldn't be teaching? All the instructors who trade c-cards for equipment sales.
Are some of my comments a little hostile. Yes.
Let me give a quick explanation of my inside view of the dive industry.
The biggest manufactures demand huge volumes or the dealorship goes out the window. Who buys most equipment? new divers. Can you meet these minimums by only selling select products from a given manufacturer? no. You must push the whole line good and bad. In fact, some insist on it. The only way to have enough new divers to sell to is to push them through like cattle. Now, you need tons of instructors who will work very cheap. Why do you think you can still find an OW class for $150. You can work the numbers yourself, this represents a loss of hundreds of dallrs, unless a bunch of equipment is sold. Every weekend I watch instructors drag alternates through the mud. I see their students do the same. I see instructors till the botom. I see their students and graduates swim overweighted, head up, blowing out the vis, draging their equipment, working very hard, breathing very hard. These instructors should not be teaching. Why? They haven't learned to dive yet. When I watch a class and can't tell the instructor an DM from the students, there is a problem. Most prospective students only want a cheap card so they can dive on their Caribbean trip.
You say diving is low injury. I say this is only true because most do canned dives under supervission. When they must plan a dive and make the choices without help they don't do so well. I have seen two divers hauled off in ambulances this year alone. I have seen many other close calls. Rapid ascents due to poor buoyancy control, improper reaction to free flowing regs and dispnea (most likely braught on by Co2 build up). These divers are not trained to dive without a DM.
I don't push DIR. I push good diving. A diver who is not weighted and trimmed correctly with poor buoyancy control is not prepared to respond to a problem or halp a buddy. In fact are making all the mistakes that lead to the problems the minute they enter the water. If it is so low injury why do we so many injured. Many divers don't know what it should look like but the instructor should. Niether the pro or the student is willing to invest the time and effort.
The fact that dive equipment has become a commodity only reinforces and rewards this behavior. I hear so many divers demand lower prices and buy from the very manufacturers that contribute so much to the situation and then complain about their incomplete training. As shops sell to a lower percentage of students the classes will get shorter and more incomplete. The consumer is in the drivers seat and owns part of the problem.
Who shouldn't be diving? All the divers I have rescued. All the divers I have seen hauled off in an ambulance. All the divers who I spot and follow a ways because they look on the verge of real trouble. All the new divers who follow DM's into wrecks at 100 ft without the right equipment or training.
Who shouldn't be teaching? All the instructors who trade c-cards for equipment sales.
Are some of my comments a little hostile. Yes.
Narced
Guest
If I understand the beginning of your post correctly the issue seems to be the volume pricing that manufacturers are using to lean on shop owners and force them to carry the entire oine in order to be competitive.
If this is true, are all manufacturers like this or only certain ones (i.e. the infamous ScubaPro)?
If this is true, are all manufacturers like this or only certain ones (i.e. the infamous ScubaPro)?
Not all are like that, only the biggest. The problem isn't just the volume pricing but the minimum required annual sales volume period. In order to stay in business and offer the big names you must pump out alot of students unless you choose to sell the stuff without being an authorized dealor. One manufacturer $17,500 opening order, another $12,500 opening order. Minimum annual volumes are that much or more. If you spred that out over the whole line, IMO you own a lot of crap that nobody should take into the waterBoth forbid online sales. One wants to tell you what other lines you can carry. Figure it out folks if I baught into that it even dictates how I must teach because it dictates what I must sell. I could not provide the education that I do and make those numbers. Retail, IMO successfull retail is a direct conflict of interest for a knowlegeable and ethical dive educator.
Mike, you keep defending the exorbitant prices by telling us about your inside view of the dive industry. I'm really sorry to tell you this, but I don't care about how the unseen portions of the dive industry operate. When a mask is $84.95 at the LDS and $39.95 at an OLS, I'm going to buy from the OLS. When the same wetsuit is $220 at the LDS and $134 at the OLS, I'm going to buy from the OLS. When the same drysuit is $1400 at the LDS and $750 at an OLS, I'm going to buy from the OLS. End of story.
No matter what happens in your "inside view," I'm not going to subsidize a *failed* business model out of mere principle.
BTW, you have no right to say what people should and shouldn't do. People know that diving is a dangerous sport, that's part of the reason they do it. To say that someone shouldn't be diving because you don't think they're good enough is absolute elitist drivel. They're endangering themselves, not you. And if you have a problem with endangering yourself to rescue them, don't. You have that choice. This *is* still a free, capitalist country.
From what I read, you sound like the ideal instructor. I would take your classes if you were in my area. But you can take your oscenely high priced LDS concept (and typically useless LDS employees) right to bankruptcy court. There will still be compressors, and there will still be instructors, and there will still be a diving industry.
Yanno, if it weren't for the online stores, I'd still be diving jacket style, in a wetsuit, in fins I don't like. Thanks to LeisurePro and Simply Scuba, I'm diving long hose, dry, in a back inflate BC I love, with fins insanely better than what I had before. I'm a college student and can't *afford* to pay the LDS, even if I *wanted* to.
But then again, maybe I just shouldn't be diving.
No matter what happens in your "inside view," I'm not going to subsidize a *failed* business model out of mere principle.
BTW, you have no right to say what people should and shouldn't do. People know that diving is a dangerous sport, that's part of the reason they do it. To say that someone shouldn't be diving because you don't think they're good enough is absolute elitist drivel. They're endangering themselves, not you. And if you have a problem with endangering yourself to rescue them, don't. You have that choice. This *is* still a free, capitalist country.
From what I read, you sound like the ideal instructor. I would take your classes if you were in my area. But you can take your oscenely high priced LDS concept (and typically useless LDS employees) right to bankruptcy court. There will still be compressors, and there will still be instructors, and there will still be a diving industry.
Yanno, if it weren't for the online stores, I'd still be diving jacket style, in a wetsuit, in fins I don't like. Thanks to LeisurePro and Simply Scuba, I'm diving long hose, dry, in a back inflate BC I love, with fins insanely better than what I had before. I'm a college student and can't *afford* to pay the LDS, even if I *wanted* to.
But then again, maybe I just shouldn't be diving.
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