The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Bishop]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As an LDS, I agree. Some of us should go out of business. Diving has become way to accessible and easy. There are too many people diving who shouldn't be and too many people teaching who shouldn't be. It is too inexpensive both in money and effort, therefore it is not respected enough.

The big reason why 'teaching' probably isn't respected enough is the caliber of students that are coming out of their schools with C-cards. When I was a college student I demanded excellence out of my professors because they demand excellence out of me (It wasn't the easy way to go through school, but I earned a lot of respect from my profs.) If my teacher half-asses I don't respect him/her. This is very true of dive teaching as well. If someone tells me they are a PADI Instuctor I don't really think it is a big deal. Just like if someone tells me they are an MCSE. So what, you paid a ****-load for a piece of paper. What can you REALLY do? A piece of paper means nothing without continued traning and experience.

Divers don't get the right equipment or skills and make a mess out of every dive site wether reef or quarry. I for one get tired of having Rodale readers who shop on line parade around thinking that they know something obout diving.

Try and educate them once or twice and then let it go. You can't change them.

A good shop can be a bargin at twice the price. If our customers (the regular divers) figure the cost of their purchases and consider the free drysuit rentals ($35), free reg use when needed ($15) free nitrox fills (10 - 15), Information rescourse (from someone who actually dives), free help setting up equipment and working out problems, The little repairs we do at the dive site at no charge and so on and so on...not only have they saved money as compared to what they would have gotten on the net but if I charged for all this most they just plain could not afford it! If we put a dollar value on these things it would indeed be an impressive figure. Since I don't get paid for these services I provide them to those I choose.

Somehow I haven't been able to use the word 'free' in a dive shop yet. And tell you the truth I'm never going to expect it. Why? Because they don't owe me anything. At the same time I owe them nothing as well.

If that's your niche in attracting consumers then go for it. You probably have a nice business. But as Joe Consumer who doesn't need you as an information resource, repair shop, free rental shop I want the best price. Period. I usually find that the dives one dive shop offers get old after a few times anyway so I'm off to another dive boat for some variety.

Divers take DIRF and are amazed and frustrate by skills like hovering, proper finning technique, backwards kicks, hello turns, horizantal ascents and descents, air sharing and mask replacement while hovering. Our divers have access to coaching in these techniques 7 days a week and usually for free. Maybe I should charge for a DIRF every weekend. Most divers wouldn't know a real bargin if it crawled inside their wet suit.

Bring it on, I'll go back and forth with you.

Yeah, maybe you should charge for pool time. Maybe then you wouldn't have to charge a %100 markup on your product, but then again ScubaPro doesn't allow discounting anyway. Then you could move more product and then get bigger discounts from the distributors.

If I get a good price I come back, and not just to use the free pool, but to buy more stuff. So who is more important? The guy using the pool for free or me who keeps coming back and buying things? Most LDS (at least the ones I've been to) don't know what a bargain price is if it crawled inside their stage two.

 

[Spectre]

mark3397 once bubbled...
I'm sorry you need your margins to be so high. I didn't do it.

One comment to make. Be aware that volume denotes cost. A small LDS doesn't turn over enough product to get the high discounts. In fact, a small LDS is making less on a same priced reg than a larger LDS. The more you buy from the dealers, the less they cost.

Yes, I occasionally buy things online (like my backplate), but I never expect any service from my LDS for it. He's been great to me about doing little repairs for free [on stuff I bought before I began to frequent his shop] as well as letting me bounce many many things off him. If I have a question about regs, I'm going to buy the reg from him since he already provided the free service... If I'm going to buy something online, I'm not going to discuss it with him because that's not fair to him.

I'm a strong believer in shop loyalty, and also I am a strong supporter of local shops. Why? 'cause I can't get my tanks filled online...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Good argument. I loose. You should shop on the net.

After teaching hundreds and seeing thousands, I'll stick my neck out and, based on what I see every day, make a prediction I predict you will change your atitude before learning to dive.

The reason poor divers hit the street is because that is what they chose to become. They seek the cheapest instructor, the cheapest gear in the shortest time with the least effort. There are good PADI instructors who have the skills and experience you will likely never even comprehend but they don't give the lowest price so you passed them up.


But...If DIRF makes an impact on you...you will buy Halcyon and you will pay full retail (because thats what it sells for) and you will be doing exactly what you think you are too smart to do. However it will be on-line so you will think it is a good deal.

I think you are smart enough to outsmart yourself.

 

[Scuba]

I am a firm believer in not throwing my money away. In many cases its hard to justify paying 30 %, 50 %, sometimes even 100 % plus for something, unless extenuating circumstances demand it. Whether its local LDS compared to local LDS or internet.

On the other hand its certainly shortsighted to just compare item to item price. As Mike pointed out the cost of the free services he provides can quickly add up and erase any saving. So the "value" of service, present or future, has to be considered by a good shopper in order to find true cost. Not always an easy thing to do.

One example in my case. I bought my gear at a local store during a sale and was not properly sized for length of BC inflator hose to regulator. Time has passed and then I realized I needed another size hose. Now when I buy the new hose, not cheap, the savings disappear, and the cost in terms of time and discomfort become apparent. As a new diver I had no idea I needed such fitting. Call it newbie mistake and LDS bad business sense.

Mike, do you mention to your new potential customers the benefits you provide to your regular customers? I think LDS's need to do this out front.

From reading many of these posts I think the problem is that many small LDS are divers first, business person second, and Customer service ( how you treat a customer ) competent third.

If you go to a store and you are treated rudely, chances are you will look for a better store that will treat you as someone who they are glad to see regardless of whatever business you wish to do with them. The way it should be, both from a customer and good business point of view. The guy who comes in for a tank valve cover may buy his next gear setup from you, unless of course, you treat him like he never will.

If you go to a store and are told the stuff you bought is crap, they won't service it, they won't train you unless you buy from them, then I recommend you turn right around and leave, doing your share to put these dinosaurs out of business.

Luckily in my area I have recieved friendly service if not always competent do to the business model of a certain large chain store. I feel bad for those of you in small towns where your choices are very limited. For better or worse this is supply and demand at work. The internet is changing the local vs. distant equation, making all product sales local. ( by the way all cyberstores have to touch down somewhere on land ) The advantage in service ( depends on overhead costs ) probably still goes to the local dealer in most cases due to the cost and time involved in transportation. Training remains a local advantage that could be exploited by attracting students from out of the area due to excellence and a fair price. You can't learn how to scuba dive in cyberspace - yet.

Peter

 

[Bishop]

Spectre once bubbled...


One comment to make. Be aware that volume denotes cost. A small LDS doesn't turn over enough product to get the high discounts. In fact, a small LDS is making less on a same priced reg than a larger LDS. The more you buy from the dealers, the less they cost.

You can always get your gas at a larger retailer as well that can actually survive at a reduced margin. It is called survival of the fittest. You learn about in Economics 101.

Yes, I occasionally buy things online (like my backplate), but I never expect any service from my LDS for it. He's been great to me about doing little repairs for free [on stuff I bought before I began to frequent his shop] as well as letting me bounce many many things off him. If I have a question about regs, I'm going to buy the reg from him since he already provided the free service... If I'm going to buy something online, I'm not going to discuss it with him because that's not fair to him.

I expect no free service if I take anything in. I am willing to pay someone for their time if it is done right.

I'm a strong believer in shop loyalty, and also I am a strong supporter of local shops. Why? 'cause I can't get my tanks filled online...

This arguement is so over used it is pathetic. If there is a demand for gas fills then some entrepeneur is going to provide them and make money doing it. It is called capitalism.

 

[redacted]

SCUBA EQUIPMENT SALES PLUMMET DUE TO LACK OF AIR

Does anyone really believe that is going to happen? While I'm sure some may be inconvienced due to a reduction of LDSs, this industry will not suffer a major setback due to the inability to find airfills. Manufacturers will change their policies before it takes a big bite out of their back pocket. If manufacturers need LDSs to provide air and service, and they apparently do, then they will have to change their business practices so enough of them survive. I guess it just isn't having enough of an effect at the top yet. With something on the order of 20 LDSs in the Austin, TX area, it just doesn't seem to be too much of a problem yet - for me or the manufacturer.

 

[Bishop]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Good argument. I loose. You should shop on the net.

After teaching hundreds and seeing thousands, I'll stick my neck out and, based on what I see every day, make a prediction I predict you will change your atitude before learning to dive.

The reason poor divers hit the street is because that is what they chose to become. They seek the cheapest instructor, the cheapest gear in the shortest time with the least effort. There are good PADI instructors who have the skills and experience you will likely never even comprehend but they don't give the lowest price so you passed them up.

Not the case. If I wanted the cheapest gear I wouldn't have bought Apeks. I wouldn't have bought Halcyon. I wouldn't have bought Suunto. If I wanted the cheapest instructor I wouldn't have signed up for the DIRF class. I would have just taken my PADI OW and be done with it.

I want to be a good diver but I refuse to subscibe to the idea that I have to subsidize a business that isn't profitable with an insane markup. And somewhere down the road I'll get freebies for this subsidy. C'mon, who are we fooling.

But...If DIRF makes an impact on you...you will buy Halcyon and you will pay full retail (because thats what it sells for) and you will be doing exactly what you think you are too smart to do. However it will be on-line so you will think it is a good deal.

I think you are smart enough to outsmart yourself.

Bah, I found a great deal on my Halcyon stuff - guess where, The Big Bad Internet(tm). I saved $200. And it is equal to yours. Yeah I saw their fair pricing sheets. I use it as a guide to see how much I am saving.

I think that you're afraid. You are afraid that comsumers don't have to be locked down to one LDS for all their info and product. And it hurts. LDSes need to adapt, combine, or fall to the wayside.

Oh, I think I just found nirvana. An LDS that is aware of Internet pricing and is willing to accept it instead of sticking their head in the sand. Oh, and they are a Halcyon dealer - even better. I think I need to run by and pick up a few things and maybe sign up for a charter or two.

 

[Bishop]

Let's throw some DIN vs Yoke in here as well so we can cover everything.

 

[MikeFerrara]

mark3397,
Who are you mad at? You have no clue as to what choices a dive shop has. You have, however, made up you mind anyway. Here is how we do it. We have worked long hours for years because we like to teach diving. I make descent money other places. I keep those sources of income so I am never slave to a business model that makes me dependant on those who think like you. I teach diving; I don't fill orders and pack boxes for those who don't get it. Money isn't enough.

Saved two hundred huh. See I told ya!

 

[Narced]

what and LDS can sell you online can't, good face to face service and training.

I buy equipment both online and from the LDS' here. For nickel and dime stuff that just isn't worth the savings I buy from the LDS. For lights and such that the LDS wants more than twice as much for I will head online. Why? Because I don't need my light serviced, etc.

Let me throw in one story here though about how and LDS SHOULD attract the business away from the net. Last time I went BC shopping I had planned to buy online and had done all research online. I headed to cheack out what was at the time a relatively new LDS (they weren;t really new but had relocated making them new to me), and at the same time take a look at one of the BCs I was considering.

My full intention and expectation was to go check out the new shop and set eyes on the BC I wanted, all the while being more or less ignored by the shop folks as I was used to at the other LDS. Well, upon walking in I was greeted cordially and asked if there was anything they could help me with. I told them I wanted to check outthe shop and also came in to look at the specific BC I was considering.

The woman who had greeted me pointed out the BC and asked if I had any questions or anything or if I just wanted to check it out on my own. I told her I had been researching the BCs and felt pretty good about this one but was open to suggestion. She asked what diving was to be done with it and in response to my input said this was probably a good choice and asked if I had dove with it. I told her I had not. She said, well let me throw some other BCs in the mix then as well. She suggested two other BCs that were both less money than the one I was looking at. Upon trying on the BCs one of the others she had suggested (100 dollars cheaper in their store than my original choice) just fit me like a glove. I told her as much and she asked if I would want to try a used on in their pool. I said sure! Upon checking they did not have a used one in my size. She said let me talk to the owner, if you really do like this BC and are looking at buying it if you like it then I will see if he would let you try it in the pool. I said I would appreciate that and left my work # with her and went back to the office to see what I could find about this BC.

Everything I found was great, including the online price of 80 dollars less than the LDS. Well, I had pretty much made up my mind on buying the BC based on the fit and talking to a co-worker who owned the same BC. The dilemna now, save 80 bucks or pay for the shops' service.

I went back to the LDS and asked what the owner had said. The woman who was helping me had not been able to speak to the owner but the manager there said that he would write me a receipt if I wanted stating that they would take return on the BC within a week and I could either try it in their pool or they would give me a tank to do it mine as well.

This really made the decision easy. I had decided before returning to the store that buying online would not be te honorable thing to do after receiving such good service. Also, find me a store anywhere online or otherwise willing to take return on a used product because they did not have one in house for me to try first. Thirdly, this sop did save me money, as I got the BC I liked better for 20 bucks less than the other one online I believe.

This LDS EARNED every penny of that BC sale from me and I have never regretted putting that extra 80 where it should be.

In all fairness, I alos tend to get lights and such online since there is not service and such associated with it like the BC service I received and the price is half online of what it is in the LDS. If that LDS is close on price, then I buy it from them because I would rather my money go there.

My point to the extra long ramble above is that was my first trip to that shop. Would they have been the wiser to me going online for that BC? NO So why pay the extra 80? Because they earned it from me. The knowledgeable input and outright willingness to do what it took to assure me they wanted me to be happy with my purchase and not feel stuck with it was worth 80 bucks to me and then some.