The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[diveaway]

I'm an experienced diver already owning a lot of gear, so when I moved I had to find a new LDS.

Was greeted warmly and I kicked of the relationship with a repair but also bought a set of tanks, so spent big $$$.

Signing up to courses is no big deal, buying equipment is not expected (I don't know the policy for OW). They know me by now (I guess because I tend to be a PITA).

Perks? Well they tend to 'forget' to charge small items and they recently replaced a hose for free because the SUPPLIER screwed up (not them).

So I don't get treated bad but they also had a few lapses in very short time. Repairs do not get done in time, wrong predictions of delivery times, course registration is forgotten to be keyed into their (lousy) computer system, tank rental prices are outrageous, some strange selection of gear (weird mix of recreational and technical diving, even a used rebreather) ...

Overall I guess I frequent one of the best stores in the area but I'm still not totally satisfied.

My prediction: the current LDSs try to run an outdated business model - trying to be complete suppliers with limited, almost amateur resources (like the old mom and pop grocery stores). Will not work! We will see that most LDS will disappear. The ones surviving will focus on a profitable niche (like fairly priced QUALITY training, technical diving, air and gas supply and so on). The general public will buy either in dive super stores (see FL) or order through the internet. The same way we buy electronics nowadays ...

The dive industry will follow the same path as other industries, it's just a matter of time.

Ray

 

[MikeS]

I think that in the past equipment sales at LDSs subsidized a lot of other services including air fills, training, and equipment service and repair. For example someone pointed out in an earlier thread that LDSs receive no reimbursement for labor from the manufactures for warranty repairs. With the coming of on-line sales LDSs will no longer be able to subsidize other activities with equipment sales and stay price competitive.

On the other hand if an LDS were to immediately raise the price of these services to reflect the true costs, many of their customers would simply go somewhere else. The situation is further complicated by the fact that some manufactures allow on-line sales and others don’t.

I believe that eventually the situation will sort itself out, as things tend to do in a market driven economy. But in the meantime the LDSs are stuck in a bad position and the situation will likely be the demise of many. In the future you’ll pay less for equipment and more for services, but the total cost of ownership probably won’t change much. Right now there is a window of opportunity where you can buy equipment from online sellers that don’t subsidize services, and get air and the equipment served at prices based on subsidies from equipment sales. Unfortunately this is only at the expense of the LDS and can’t last very long before the LDS goes out of business.

So based on the situation it is understandable why LDSs are upset, and since a lot of sales people are paid commission so are they.

Mike

 

[kwesler]

The interesting thing is that my perception is that the board is starting to change from a "Support your LDS no matter what" vibe to a "We are the Customer and expect to be treated that way" vibe. Maybe it is my imagination, but I think I see a lot less of those "Well Mister Man let's see you get a fill from an online store" rants.

The SCUBA shop is a retail business, no more no less. All businesses have to deal with three factors: Price, product and service. To thrive and survive, you have to be at least equal to your competitors on 2 and superior on the third.

Ken

 

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

nicodaemos once bubbled...
So given this, it amazes me that dive shops are not more customer oriented. In other industries that have similar characteristics -- lets look at airlines for example -- customers are provided with membership cards that track their spending and are provided perks accordingly. Airlines provide you with frequent flier miles as incentive to stay with them. Delta gives you silver, gold or platinum membership status which provides even more specific perks based on how much you fly.

People on the board have mentioned that having a relationship with the dive shop means that you get deals over the long run. But you, as the customer, are taking the chance that patronizing a store will turn into future discounts or perks. I haven't heard of any dive shop turning this into a standard policy similar to airline frequent flier points.

Funny you should mention this - just last week I got a Direct Rewards card from Divers Direct. The chain has BIG stores down here in Florida - a literal Toys 'R' Us for diving in addition to a big on line presence. They also offer classes, informational seminars, trips AND airfills.

The other store I've been patronizing is also a chain, with stores in Florida and New York state. Scuba Network has some pretty good prices - much cheaper than all the other LDS's I've been to. Their prices are usually within $20-40 of what I can get online.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't want to dwell on the lds/online thing again but I will comment from a training point of view. I teach, own a dive shop and hold a full time day jod. We got in it to teach. Teaching and retail are almost a conflict of interest. I wish all the retail would go to the net and I could charge a descent buck for teaching.

Anyway...A student buys a mask and fins from me. We get in the pool and one or the other don't work out so well. In the shop we can only take an educated guess at what will work. The solution is simple I just swap out the stuff. It's my class, I sold the stuff and it's my responsibility so I fix it.

Another scenario...Student buys a mask online or elsewhere. They get in the pool and they can't dive with the mask. They saved money and my class gets all screwed up. Yes, we get it fixed. Sometimes the student sees the error of their ways but the whole thing costs me extra time and work.

Student orders off the net. The stuff doesn't show up in time for class. The student gets mad because I won't lend them equipment or because I don't have a rental mask that fits them.

In my last class a student baught a mask at (I don't know). The mask was always so fogged and flooded the student couldn't see hand signals or directions. The student finally tried to clean the mask it got so scratched up that it is now completely useless. Now I realize that the student has a plastic mask. This student must spend more time in the pool and is not yet progressing to open water. Should I charge the student double? He is taking up a spot in a second class. Again I spend more and work harder because some cheap SOB thinks they know more than me.

I prefer a student doesn't buy much until we start class. If they take some of my advice they will save money and dive better.

I have a student who already baught a buch of stuff (class hasn't started yet). He listened to Rodale's and his buddy in Texas. He is already behind. He may find that all he spent was a total waist.

 

[kwesler]

I am surprised that there are not equipment requirements posted for courses. I do not mean the standard "mask, snorkel and fins" but rather a SPECIFIC list-the same way that I was given specific equipement requirements for graduate work at school-ie, "a Pentium computer capable of..."

"Student must provide mask, fins and snorkel that fit well and are appropriate for SCUBA. A list of recommended brands and a summary of fit characteristics are available upon request. This dive shop STRONGLY recommends that you have your equipment approved far enough in advance of the course to enable you to replace if it should not prove adequate. Poor equipment choice is a safety issue, and we cannot be responsible for lost class time should we deem your equipment unacceptable"

 

[NINman]

I agree I think Equipment and Training should not go hand to hand. I help out an INDEPENDENT YMCA instructor. He doesn't sell gear and his classes are very reasonably in price. We do try to send them to the local LDS's, but we also tell them the + and -'s of buying online vs. buying at a local shop. We leave it up to the student to choose what manufacture he wants to use and why he chooses it. If for some reason we see where a Mask or fins are not working for the student we tell them and give some suggestions on what to buy. We do not discriminate!!! I guess we Upstate NY people are just to easy going... but that’s the way we like it.

 

[gentlegiant]

My wife and I bought our 1st set of gear at our LDS and they threw in the OW class with the purchase. Since that time I have purchased some equipment online, but if it is equipment related to life support (regs, computers, tanks) I still prefer to buy it at the LDS. My reasoning goes beyond the warranty and repair issue though. To me it is very simple, if something goes wrong with a piece of life support gear I want to be able to look the sales person in the eye and tell them to fix it. I want to have a "throat to choke" . We have purchased gear from other DS and when our main LDS found out about it they did not complain, they took it as a challenge to try and do a better job so they could keep our business. Right now if it is a wetsuit, fins, snorkel or accessory gear I will probably buy it where I can get the best deal but I will still buy the other stuff at a local shop.

 

[TCDiver1]

gentlegiant once bubbled...
My wife and I bought our 1st set of gear at our LDS and they threw in the OW class with the purchase. Since that time I have purchased some equipment online, but if it is equipment related to life support (regs, computers, tanks) I still prefer to buy it at the LDS. My reasoning goes beyond the warranty and repair issue though. To me it is very simple, if something goes wrong with a piece of life support gear I want to be able to look the sales person in the eye and tell them to fix it. I want to have a "throat to choke" . We have purchased gear from other DS and when our main LDS found out about it they did not complain, they took it as a challenge to try and do a better job so they could keep our business. Right now if it is a wetsuit, fins, snorkel or accessory gear I will probably buy it where I can get the best deal but I will still buy the other stuff at a local shop.

that LDS is not the norm. Sounds like you landed on a good LDS, count yourself lucky & keep in touch with them.

If you dive long enough & associate with enough dive stores, you will experience what people are talking about in this thread

PS: do gentle giants choke throats?

 

[Wyno]

I want to get certified, after Reading this discussion about equipment and getting certified from your LDS, I wanted to know how much should getting certified cost without equipment? The LDS I’m looking at will cost me $400. That includes equipment for your OW-certification.