The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[dvleemin]

Originally posted by pt40fathoms
I'll make this simple dvleemin.

I am a canadian, I want to buy American dollars. In my example I showed you, "To buy US dollars with CDN dollars: $1.00 USD = $1.55 CDN".
Soo, it would cost me 1.55 CDN for every American Dollar I buy. You have so graciously confirmed that when you posted:

"I just checked the bank of montreal - the buy sell rates are $1.558 and $1.511. Nowhere near $1.42 unfortunately"

Thank you.

On the other hand, if I were an American buying Canadian dollars, my $1.00 U.S. would get me $1.42 Canadian dollars in return. On this I may be off, depending on where in the USA you buy your currency.

I have found that the best exchange rates can be made in the border states of the USA when buying American Dollars, and most Americans who come up here, get a better rate of exchange when buying our currency in Canada.

So you see my friend, I too an right when it comes to the rate to buy US Dollars in canada, and MAY be wrong when it comes to buying Canadian dollars in the USA.

So your last post, where you claimed that I was wrong twice was in itself wrong, making you wrong three time to my possible one wrong,,,,so,,,I win. Nah Nah.

(just having a little fun, please don't take too serious)

You're still completely wrong. I don't think you quite understand how this works. Lets make it simple for you.

Lets say you have 100 US dollars, and you want to exchange it to CDN dollars. You go down to the bank, and give the tellar the money. In return, she gives you $151.10 (100 x 1.511).

Now lets say you have 100 CDN dollars, and you want to exchange it to US dollars. You go down to the bank, and give the tellar the money. In return, she gives you $64.18 (100 / 1.558).

Notice in this whole time the tellar didn't ask the nationality of the person - it doesn't matter if you're Canadian or American.

This works whether you are in the US or Canada.

The specific exchange rates may vary slightly from bank to bank, but only be a tiny tiny amount. There is NO way a bank is giving a 1.42 exchange rate.

Prove it if you disaggree.

Darryl

 

[Marlinspike]

Candadian vs US dollar...who cares? ! Its the OPPORTUNITY COST that you should really be concerned with. So what if our US dollar is stronger? What matters are the purchases you have forgone in favor of scuba related expenditures. In other words, what else could you have done with the money?

I cannot think of any better way to spend money than on diving.


~Marlinspike

 

[Mike Newman]

I'll probably regret getting into this, but!

I have many relatives in Canada - and they all tell me that, for most consumer goods, the sting of the poor exchange rate on the C$ is eased by stores pricing more keenly. By which they mean - that an object priced at US$100 in the States is often available at or around C$100 in Canada.

I guess from the earlier correspondence that LDS north of the border are not following this fine principle - or they're just plain greedy.

Any thoughts.

MN

 

[pchelp]

Jason, check out discountdiver.com, after you identify an item you want, if they stock the item, they will match anyone's price (including LiesurePro), and they are authorized for all products they sell, you can verify this on the equipment mfg.'s web site. I purchased my EANx computer from them using a price match for a very low price.

PM me sometime if you want, I live in st. pete

 

[BEACHBUM885]

You won't be getting any business from me. I only buy that which I can see and inspect in person at a reputable local dealer that is qualified to perform the necessary maintenance on the equipment he/she sells.

Sorry folks but that was what I was taught in scuba school. That and remember your training.

 

[nicodaemos]

Hi,

I'm a total newbie who almost dropped the whole idea of scuba after interacting with my local dive shops. Sorry for the long post, but I thought my experience might give some food for thought to others.

I'd been reading this board a little, but didn't really understand the war that is being waged between the online stores and the lds's. In case you're not familiar with it, online stores are doing brisk sales with their low prices and profit margins based on their high volume sales. Your local dive shop has usually seen its revenue from local repeat business starting from the day that you sign up for your first dive class. Their profit margins need to be much higher due to the cost of the physical storefront and relatively low volume of merchandise that they move. The lds seemed to mostly have other lds's as their primary competition until the Internet allowed some dive shops to go online and scale bigger than ever before. Now your lds is frankly scared by the prices and margins that the online stores can run on. Had I known this I would have saved myself some unpleasant conversations along the way. But I had to learn things the hard way.

Wanting to get open water certified, I was visiting various dive shops to investigate their training. Since I had a couple friends who were divers and had been reading the online and magazine equipment reviews, I already had a specific idea of which mask, fins and snorkel I was going to get.

In looking at the shops, I was mostly evaluating them on whether I liked and trusted the people I interacted with. Some talked about how to go about purchasing equipment, most did not. Some said in their brochures that they *required* you to purchase your mask, fins, snorkel from them. Others didn't say anything except that I needed this equipment before my first class. Even though I knew exactly what equipment I wanted, I was too naive to think about discussing where I might purchase it from with the shops.

No problem I thought. The shops that *required* my purchasing from them were dropped off of my list. I'm all about freedom ... I might purchase from you and then again I might not, but that is and will always remain *my* decision.

So I picked a shop that had an owner I liked and hadn't mentioned requiring my patronage. When I had been at their shop I had noticed that they didn't have the specific model of mask I wanted, nor did they have the brand or model of fin I wanted. So I had planned to pick these items up online. To try to support the dive shop, I had planned to purchase a mask and fins from the lds for my girlfriend that she could use for snorkeling.

Well when I next spoke to the dive shop to say that I was signing up for classes and that I would be purchasing some (but not all) of my equipment and almost all of my girlfriend's stuff from them, things hit the fan. Nowhere before had this shop mentioned that they required my patronage, but now I was told in no uncertain terms that I would have to purchase all of my gear from them or take my classes from someone else. The conversation went downhill from there. I have to say that I have never had such an unpleasant conversation with a salesperson, at a time when I am considering making a purchase.

Not liking the feeling of a gun to my head I started phoning other dive shops in the area. With each one I now told them up front that I had my own gear and asked if they would have an issue with that. Some reluctantly said it wouldn't be a problem, but aggressively stated that they would have to inspect it and see if it met with their approval. I don't know about you, but when I tell someone that I'm walking in with brand new Cressi-sub and TUSA gear, and they tell me that they still might reject it, I don't get a warm fuzzy. I was not about to purchase all new gear only to have some dive instructor tell me he wouldn't let me use it in his class since it wasn't purchased from their shop.

It wasn't all bad thought, I do have to give one of the schools credit. The lady at this one shop informed me that the price of the OW cert would be higher if I didn't purchase my equipment from them. How much higher -- approximately $200 more. While that figure was quite sizable, I did appreciate that they were upfront and offered me a choice.

At this point I was a little disappointed with the sport. On one side I had dive shops who wouldn't teach me unless I pledged my loyalty to them, and on the other I had shops whose cost might price me out of the sport. I had seriously considered ditching the whole idea of the sport for now.

Luckily, the last dive shop I phoned was great. They didn't care if I had my own equipment. They didn't have a different price if I was already equipped. They didn't care if did my open water certification dive with them or received a referral letter. The choice was totally mine ... I was in nirvana!

I have quickly signed up with this last dive shop and they have already received my patronage. In fact, I noticed that their prices for masks and fins are about $20 more than what I can find online so I have no qualms purchasing more of my gear from them. While I'm on a budget, I am willing to spend a little extra to support a lds. It's just that I can't support someone selling a mask for $90 that I can find online for $35.

I don't know who is right or wrong in this war between the lds and the online stores ... and you know what ... I don't care. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm taking on this sport to get away from the harsh realities of life and have some FUN. I'm not sure what the right business model is for the lds, but I can't imagine alienating novice divers as being good for their longevity.

Looking forward to my classes on the 17th and 18th of this month. Woo hooo!!!

 

[metridium]

Hi, Nicodaemos

nicodaemos wrote...
It wasn't all bad thought, I do have to give one of the schools credit. The lady at this one shop informed me that the price of the OW cert would be higher if I didn't purchase my equipment from them. How much higher -- approximately $200 more.

Which suggests they're making that much over the wholesale cost of gear.....

nah, sounds more like a harrassment fee is included in that.



Congrats on your upcoming classes and finding a shop.

 

[chrispete]

Seems to me that the LDS's in your area that are being difficult about the equipment purchase/class deal are going to miss out on more than just people who buy their equipment online, but from others - for example, I am getting into the position where I will start to have some "spare" equipment and fully expect to loan that equipment to friends who may want to get certified. If a LDS would refuse to teach someone in that position (borrowed equipment) they will lose the potential for sales from when my friend decides to buy their own equipment and return mine to me. It may take a couple of months, but eventually they would probably make some sales.

What LDS's seem to be doing is, well to use a blunt phrase, "sh***ing in their own nests." Even if a shop merely breaks even on training, they should use the time that they have contact with their students to establish relationships and trust (not hard sell as this kills trust), thus increasing the odds of repeat business - if you have 10 people that you break even on that had their own mask, et al. that you would normally turn away, and just one of those people comes back to purchase their BC/reg/whatever or rent equipment, then you have ended up ahead of the game. You can never have repeat business if you turn away the client at the door.

Geez, think about the potential profit if a LDS were to work with students and encourage them to rent several different configurations of equipment (steady income) versus pushing a one-time sale on a student... "Oh, you're looking at regs, try these three different brands out over your next three days of diving so you can find which one you like the best, I'll have to charge you a bit of rent...say, I'll give you 10% of the rental price credit towards your reg purchase even." In this one sentence, the LDS has 1) helped the customer by letting them try the equipment out and decided which solution is best for them, 2) provided for $30-50 dollars of revenue, 3) gave the customer a warm fuzzy because they're getting a deal, and 4) giving the customer two reasons to return to the shop - a) "they actaully cared enough to not shove a reg down my throat," and b) the 10% sounds like a deal while only being in reality $3-5 that has already been recouped through the revenue from the rental.

Don't get me wrong, I do support LDS's, and have spent quite a bit (of time and $) at mine - mainly because the owners have earned my trust and respect and I value their opinion. I just think that some LDS's out there that are trying to stay with the "old model" of the business need to rethink their positions in order to survive in their struggle against the Internet based sellers.

I'll end this long and probably rambling rant now - I just get out of sorts when I see people who own businesses (any type) torpedoing their own chances for survival through knee-jerk reactions and not thinking out their problems.

 

[sheck33]

Jeez that sounds familiar, i help out with classes a lot and this store has the same problem, though they dont care if as a student you buy your gear from them they don't 'allow' certain gear to be used bu DM's, AI's and instructors, it is the 'if we dont sell it you cant use it thing' Luckily the instructor i help doesnt care if i use a DIR style rig. This 'game' makes me sick, if a LDS has a problem with me using a Halcoyn wing and a Halcyon cannister light that's too bad, they can go **** themselves and i'll go elsewhere, from what i have seen so far quality education is secondary to making money.

You could say us DIR folks are anal about gear, yes thats true but nobody in that group cares WHERE you buy it as long as it meets the requirements, requirements that i personally think are well founded and thought out.

anyway, needed to vent

 

[WreckWriter]

Sounds like the LDS's in your area are truly sh!tty. The stories you tell, although I believe them, are unbelievable. I've never seen such behavior from a shop.

On the other hand, Sheck's tale is pretty standard, and sorta understandable. Were I a shop owner, I would want my instructors/DMs to wear what I sell.

To treat prospective students like that is incomprehensible.

Once again though, on the other hand, you mention "brand new Cressi-sub and TUSA gear". Both of these, in my opinion, are barely acceptable brands in the best case. If that is what you bought, you might well have been better off listening to the LDS.

Tom