The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

This was the topic of my very first post here - repost.

You ain't kidding! When my daughter and I were looking to take lessons, we did a lot of research on the web, read a few books, and generally poked around at some of the big box stores in the area. We ended up buying our lesson equipment from a few different places, including the internet.

When I selected a shop to take lessons from (based on location and class availabilty and schedule), I went on my own to sign us up and to pay. Just as I finished the paperwork, I was asked when my daughter would be coming in to be fitted for her equipment. When I replied that we already had our equipment, the air suddenly got very cold in the store. The manager literally grabbed the forms from the counter and told me we could NOT join the class if we weren't buying equipment from them. After a moment of shocked silence on my part I asked her if she was kidding. No, she was very serious, they only make money on equipment and their lessons were a loss leader. I left the store.

I thought it was rather short sighted on their part - who knows where I would have bought my future equipment. And as an aside, I glad I was forced to look elsewhere. I found another store not much farther that not only owns it's own boat (OW dives were included in the price, not an add on) and are much friendlier, but the original shop where I tried to sign up recently lost a student who drown doing their first OW dive!

 

[Ranz]

I had some problems with a LDS myself, I spent about $1500 in the one i got my OW, and visited them about 6 times. What made me mad, was that I seen the same guy every time, and EVERY time I returned, he had no memory of me at all! You would think that someone would remember you when:
1) The day you sign up for OW the power is out, and you spend three hours talking to them, then return the next day to pay for the items you purchased for class.
2) Me and Buncho go together when we visit the store, we are a mixed couple. I am American, and she is a tiny Asian. Not a total odd couple, but enough of one that it should ring a bell.
3) You spend $1500 in gear before you even have an OW class.

The thing that killed me, was when I took my OW class, the paper work was filled with more catelogs than dive instruction, my test was more of a sells pitch than informative, and I was told if I did not buy my gear from them, then I could not take advanced courses......because of "insurance reasons"

pphhttt

Ranz

 

[metridium]

Thing is the LDSs are eventually going to have to raise training course costs to compete with internet sales, if trends continue.

No one wants to be the first to do so - virtual suicide if the others don't soon follow - so they're playing these little games like nicodaemos and others have encountered and hoping someone else will move first.

Problem for me is that while OW was worth the price I paid, if they were $200 more - to use nico's example above - I wouldn't have ever taken the class. AOW in my case wasn't worth the posted rate at that time, and certainly wouldn't be if prices go up.

Air fill costs may have to increase as well, though that remains to be seen.

 

[Tm530]

I can't believe some of these stories. It reminds me of when I got into diving 20 years ago and all the dive shops who had a "macho-militant" attitude. I ran into a lot of jerks who had a really poor business outlook. Thankfully, the weeded themselves out of the business eventually. Stores that treat people this way will too...over time. That being said, we all need to expect to see less shops and higher prices on items online shops can't provide: air and training. Online sales will spell the end of a lot of small dive shops. I personally am willing to pay a small - small - premium for personal service and attention. Shops that can adapt to this will succeed. The others will go the way of the dinosaurs. But don't go around thinking there will still be a wide selection of dive shops on every corner AND you can buy all your gear online. It's just not going to happen.
Tom

 

[TCDiver1]

i have encountered over the years have had these types of problems dealing with customers. The online thing just made it worse. IMO most of them blow the first basic law of business, treat the customer right the first time & they will come back again. They make the cardinal sin of thinking you need them, more than they need you. It's very basic stuff & for some reason most of them get it wrong. Sad but true in general in my region.

I've come full circle, several times unfortunately, with two of the stores i work with. From being treated like a piece of krap & telling them to pack it, to lets work this thing out so it benefits us both, to screw it i'm buying my own compressor, to lets work it out, etc, etc ....... It's an ongoing battle that will probably never end.

Personally speaking, i keep fighting it because some people who own these stores secretly view instruction as the necessary evil required to sell gear. Gear is where they really make their money, so capitalism being what it can be, they push gear, not education. Again breaking another important rule in business, educating your customer about the product your selling, is very important. In a sport as potentially dangerous as diving, proper education is essential & many don't get that when chasing dollars & cents. So i try to keep the peace, as distasteful as that can be sometimes, in an effort to positively influence the end product, the student. I could give a flying fugowie what equipment they are diving with or who they bought it from, as long as they leave OW class as a well rounded beginning diver.

With all that said, & i'm not defending LDS's that act with ignorance as shown above, most LDS are having a very difficult time of it today. They need our business to stay in business. My suggestion to you is to try to develop a relationship with any LDS that treated you right. Be honest & tell them you shop on the net but will give them a chance to get closer to the internet prices you are finding, in an attempt to help them out. Talk to the owner if possible. Any LDS that does not totally have their collective head up their butt will respond positively to that approach. Be willing to pay some percentage higher to the LDS for the services they are going to provide you locally. It is to your benefit & the LDS's to have some kind of ongoing relationship.

 

[raxafarian]

this entire subject is just sad. If a LDS can't run a successful business... that is not MY problem or YOUR problem. Why must we as customers subsidize bad business practices? Yes, I understand that the LDS has it's hands tied in some instances by the manufacturers as far as equipment pricing.

Why offer training at a loss? Most of your students are going to purchase the basic equipment at the LDS where they are taking the lessons... but to require that is just stupid. If the training costs are lowered because the lds is expecting to make it up on equipment sales... then that, to me, is also stupid.

Every class I take seems to cost a certain amount. Then you have to buy the book/materials. Then add on the cert. cost. This is ridiculous... just tell me how much it costs.

I keep reading how air is a money loser... well...IF it is, then they should charge 5.00 /fill instead of 4.00/fill or whatever.

I guess I'm just sick of hearing about how the LDS can't stay in business because of everyone moving to internet purchases, and training is a loss... and air is a loss, service is a loss, etc. If that is the way they are running their business, then that is not my fault.

Charge me what you must for your services. I don't mind. I might shop around.. but I DO NOT mind paying for services that I want and I do NOT mind paying whatever amount might be required for those services. I will shop around though, for the best value for my money.

Maybe there's too many LDS's in a local area??? Will all LDS's survive the next 5 years? No, some won't. But that is business. Why should a dive shop be treated any different than a car dealer or any other business?

ok, I'm done ranting.

If you are a LDS owner, I'm not trying to offend you. Just stating facts as I see them from a consumer's viewpoint. More and more people are going to 'discover' online purchasing... just another fact.

 

[metridium]

raxafarian wrote...
I keep reading how air is a money loser... well...IF it is, then they should charge 5.00 /fill instead of 4.00/fill or whatever.

Yeah, what's up with that? People who are already certified aren't going to stop diving because a fill costs another dollar or two more. I also seriously doubt it's going to turn away any prospective divers from getting certified.

raxafarian wrote...
Charge me what you must for your services. I don't mind. I might shop around.. but I DO NOT mind paying for services that I want and I do NOT mind paying whatever amount might be required for those services. I will shop around though, for the best value for my money.

Couldn't have said it better....just as long as the quality of training is worthy of the cost.

 

[nicodaemos]

gedunk once bubbled...
... With all that said, & i'm not defending LDS's that act with ignorance as shown above, most LDS are having a very difficult time of it today. They need our business to stay in business. My suggestion to you is to try to develop a relationship with any LDS that treated you right. ... It is to your benefit & the LDS's to have some kind of ongoing relationship.

I agree with both of your points: dive shops are having a tough go of it and everyone benefits when the dive shop and customer have a good relationship.

So given this, it amazes me that dive shops are not more customer oriented. In other industries that have similar characteristics -- lets look at airlines for example -- customers are provided with membership cards that track their spending and are provided perks accordingly. Airlines provide you with frequent flier miles as incentive to stay with them. Delta gives you silver, gold or platinum membership status which provides even more specific perks based on how much you fly.

People on the board have mentioned that having a relationship with the dive shop means that you get deals over the long run. But you, as the customer, are taking the chance that patronizing a store will turn into future discounts or perks. I haven't heard of any dive shop turning this into a standard policy similar to airline frequent flier points.

Ranz once bubbled...
... I spent about $1500 in the one i got my OW ... and EVERY time I returned, he had no memory of me at all!

Okay this is just plain lunacy on the part of the dive shop. Unless you've got rock bottom prices, a monopoly or incriminating pictures you are not going to get your customers to keep coming back to you unless you recognize and reward the big spenders.

I think dive shops add a lot of value to the sport ... I just think that many of them need to rethink how they run themselves as businesses.

 

[JamesK]

I worked as a firearms dealer for three years, and if I treated my customers the way I have been treated by LDS's, the store would have went out of business. I treated everyone who walked in the door like they were a long time customer. Even if they wanted to just talk, I would spend all the time they needed explaining anything they asked. If they told me that another store had it cheaper, then I would match the price or give them extra perks like complimentary range time or a box of free ammo. This kept the customers coming back. I tried to remember every customer I had. Even now, 3 years later and no longer in the business, (the store is, I just quit) I still see some of the people who only bought one or two things from me, and we remember each other. This is what the LDS's need to do. However, none in my area do. I go in and they treat me like I am hassling them if I want to check a price on something and not buy it, even if I am buying something else. When I ask about ordering technical gear, or something they do not have, they look at me as if I have sinned. They try to tell me my gear is not good for ow diving etcetc. This is why my LDS, well actually three of them, are all 400 miles away in Florida's Cave Country. They all know I buy from each other, even if they don't like each other, they treat me with respect. They treat me how I would treat them if they were my customers. So if I need anything larger then $10, I will wait until my next trip to the caves to buy it. Sorry local LDS's, but you did it to yourself.

 

[metridium]

nicodaemos wrote...
I haven't heard of any dive shop turning this into a standard policy similar to airline frequent flier points.

I believe Dacor tried something along those lines several years ago, but canceled the program shortly after I heard about it.