The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

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jonnythan,
By all means do as you please. I am just telling you why the LDS employee is so useless and why there is so much poor instruction. Do what you want with what I tell you. There will not be good instruction untill it pays and it doesn't. You must sell equipment to teach. I didn't create the business model. On the contrary we are working very hard to create and promote something completely different. We are placing emphisis on training and trying to charge for it. If I can't make training a profit center I will quit.

Someone who cares about diving should use their consumer dollars to send the message of their choice. The message being sent is "we want it cheap" but don't complain about the useless DS employee because you get what you pay for.

All of you are correct in that when you buy at the LDS you are financing services YOU may not need. The model is simple. The only thing people pay for is equipment yet we must have a building and a sign and be there until late into the night providing the expertise (I'm assuming a competant shop) that it took years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain. I could have baught one hell of a web site for that money. The only oportunity to charge money is on a sale. The reason you find so many incompetants in the LDS is they have not made that investment. There is no money in it. The money is in having a website and a warehouse, buying large quantities and shipping orders. I may do this someday, but why would the merchandise be dive equipment. Porn would sell better. Yes the model is flawed. However the companies recieving the largest rewards are controling the model. For now the dive shop does free sales and training to create a market for the volume merchant who knows nothing about diving. I give out a card the diver buys an online bc. We show a bc he sells it. He should pay commission. We create his market and provide the expertise so that he doesn't need to make that investment.

And... people do not realize that diving is dangerous and this is not why they do it. To sell enough equipment, we tell them that it is safe and easy and they can learn it in a hurry. We show pictures of colorfull reefs and fish. We do not convey the horror of an underwater mishap. Only the liability release says there is danger. That is how we sell the equipment and fill the resorts. BTW we tell prospective instructors the same thing.

If the consumer is happy with what they have it must be good but it makes me sad anyway.

You don't have to like my opinions or me but this is why you must go to GUE to learn to dive.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
The only oportunity to charge money is on a sale.

Hey Mike. Why not sell your customer names and mailing lists? That'll generate some more income and you can lower prices?

Oh... Wait... It might piss off your customers if an LDS sold their name. :rolleyes:
 
LDS’s need to realize that they are, and will be, dealing with better informed consumers. This includes both product knowledge, this board is a PRIME example, and pricing.
I don’t think DIR/GRU would exist on the scale it does without the Internet. The same thing that is driving better diver technical education, is the same thing that is driving better diver financial education, knowledge of what is available.
It is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong, is that DiveInn is a brick and mortar business, so is SimplyScuba. They just got smart and looked for a bigger market. The Internet, where we all spend too much time on this board, is the way of the present. They are not selling porn because they like Scuba.
It is not "we want it cheap" it is we want it fair, and no one will convince a lot of us that twice the price is fair. I don’t buy into the argument that fair pricing means lousy instruction.
What is to stop any LDS from competing with DiveInn, SimplyScuba, and LesuirePro? Most LDS’s are not beating them, so join them. Try telling the Costco’s, Sam’s, or Walmart’s that higher volume with less margin doesn’t work. (Or SimplyScuba or DiveInn for that matter.)
Bill
 
If I honor the dealer agreements that I signed I can't join them. The only line that I carry that permits online sales is Halcyon. Apex is Aqualung, we lost that when Aqualung got them. To get it back I would need to play the game I described above. Much (not all) of the online stuff is not sold by dealers. Some outfits service equipment without being authorized to do so. I haven't yet recieved an answer from my insurance company about that one. You may not need tobe a Chevy dealer to service a Chevy but you sure as hell need to be an aqualung dealer to buy aqualung parts or get service manuals. We can't play the game unless we cross lines we don't feel comfortable crossing.

We intend to get out of equipment sales almost totally. We will have some of the esentials and thats about it. We are working on promoting training. The kind of training you just can't get down the street. We have those skills and that is what we will attempt to sell. We'll see what the market is. If there isn't one I'll be able to finish fixing my house and catch up on cave dives.
 
I'm curious about where online operations get their stock from. Surely it's not all falling off the back of trucks. Which means it could be traced and the supply cut off. Is somebody playing both ends against the middle? If so, why? Insight anybody?
 
MikeF
I do not envy LDS owners. I have been in a similar situation in the grocery business. My brother and I owned a small (by today’s standards) store. Two large chains came into town and were selling product below cost. (A jar of Bestfoods (Hellmann’s) mayo cost me $2.87, they were selling them at $1.49 a jar.) We did not have the capital to stay afloat, and we had to close the doors after about a year.
This was bad for us, but the consumer was getting a great deal. Over time both store raised their prices somewhat, but they still sell cheaper than anyone else around. There are only a few locally owned grocery stores left.
While we were unable to adapt and remain in business, it sounds like you are. Good luck! (I mean that for real, not sarcastically.)
I think something will have to give with the manufactures. Either they will allow U.S. stores to set their own pricing, without minimum orders/sells, or they will clamp down on the supply side of the unauthorized OLS. As a consumer I hope it is the former. You should be able to set your own margins. The rebates/markdowns manufactures give for volume should be stopped. They should be able to set whatever wholesale price they want and the dive shop should be able to set their own retail.
If your shop has received the proper training to service a given brand you should be allowed to service that brand, regardless of volume.
My 2 cents.
Bill
ps I had boxboys go buy the mayo from the large stores and I sold it for $1.99. It kept my pricing close to theirs, and I made a decent margin. Of course they got wise and started limiting the amount an individual could purchase.
 
I don't know what the deal is with the manufacturers. I contacted SimplyScuba and they told me that they are one of Apeks' main dealers in the UK and what they sell comes with a full warranty. I refuse to pay almost $600 for a reg locally when I can have it delivered to my door for lest than $325. I realize all the issues with warranty work and they don;t need to be rehashed in response to my post.

What I don't get is why the suppliers insist on holding the LDS's in the US hostage while letting the LDS's in the UK and Spain do whatever they want. Selling at lower prices and over the Internet.

Gunter
 
What I don't get is why the suppliers insist on holding the LDS's in the US hostage while letting the LDS's in the UK and Spain do whatever they want. Selling at lower prices and over the Internet

To my recollection this is a legal issue that as it stands favors the manufacturer. I remember some years back there was a sporting goods chain store that opened in the Los Angeles area selling equipment much cheaper than anyone else. If am not mistaken they were buying many of their merchandise overseas, apparently much cheaper than they could buy it here, importing it and selling at a significant discount. The manufacturers then refused to sell to them. The case then went to court and the court ruled that the manufacturer had a right to control its products thereby granting them the right to refuse to sell to anyone and dictate some control over their products.

I believe the problem of price fixing is impossible to enforce with this ruling since the manufacturer suggested list price is only a guide that is not contractually binding on the retailer. But in practice if the retailer does not follow their guidelines they can just simply refuse to sell to them.

I do not know about the overseas aspect of this.

Perhaps someone familiar with these laws can correct me and offer a better explantion.

Peter
 
DuckDive once bubbled...
I'm curious about where online operations get their stock from. Surely it's not all falling off the back of trucks. Which means it could be traced and the supply cut off. Is somebody playing both ends against the middle? If so, why? Insight anybody?

I think its because most online stores are not authorized dealers, which means they dont have to sell it at "MSRP" manufacturers suggested retail price...so...yeah... i understand the whole business side of why LDSs have high prices, but im a poor college student like jonnythan so i bought my stuff from leisurepro and weights and stuff like that from my LDS..
 
that was kind of off topic about the quote in my post.. but anyway, i guess they get their stock from the manufacturers?? BUT look what i saw on divebooty's website:

"Did you know that a relatively well known online scuba retailer had purchased regulators from some 3rd world country and had them forge a "ScubaPro" emblem on it, and sold them to unsuspecting divers at nearly half the price of a real ScubaPro regulator? This information only became available after someone was seriously hurt! (By the way, ScubaPro does not allow its ("real") authorized dealers to sell their products on the web!)"

from:
http://www.divebooty.com/before_you_buy.asp

does anyone know anything about which store that was?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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