The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

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From what I have gathered from various sources, and I could be totally wrong, but the pricing problems don't seem to come from the manufactures. There are different distrubuters in the U.S. than there are overseas and it is my understanding that they are the ones who require the dealership agreements and set the terms there of.

Chad
 
Not sure if it is true or not but I heard that Leisure Pro got some equipment from some shady source and then someone got hurt, but the they covered their trail, by saying that someone else gave them the stuff...

I would NEVER buy from Leisure Pro... there has to be something to all of the bad things people say about them...

BUYER BEWARE!!! ;-0
 
Slapping your LDS in the face by buying online is one thing but buying from sites (people) who could care less about their customers...

Cannot see it! I'd rather pay more from someone else!
 
Diveinn sells Cressi regulators for less than the best dealer pricing available regardless of volume (at least they were). The Cressi rep tells me that they are trying to stop it. I am a Cressi dealer but I have never sold a Cressi reg, I have all Of my original stock well...except for the one I gave to my son. You folks buy Apex for less than I could when I was a dealer (when they were Zeagle regs). We aren't even interested in trying to compete on this level, not that we could. I have recieved e-mails from companies wanting to buy large quantities of Halcyon products. They would of course sell them at a much reduced price (They were turned down by Halcyon). At least some portion of the stuff you buy discount is obtained in this manner. We can honor our dealer contracts or hit the street looking for stuff to sell discount. No thanks.

Most manufacturers don't control our markup so much as they control what we pay. When it comes to this kind of commodity buying the small LDS has nothing to offer so I won't waist my time. The problem isn't online vs in-store, hell I have a web site. The problem is the restrictions on how we do business.

Speaking for my store we wont rush training to cut losses and try to make it up on equipment sold by questionable sales methods. And that, folks, is the game. If there is one subject that comes up often on this board it is the poor state of dive training. It's not because nobody knows how, its because the ones who know how won't give it away. The GUE are not the only ones with good trim doing hello turns and reverse frog kicks. The fact that folks talk about this stuff like it was some mysticle ability is almost funny. That is the sad part. The ones with the expertise will keep it to themself and you may get a incompitant DS monkey for an instructor.
 
ThinDiver once bubbled...
Slapping your LDS in the face by buying online is one thing but buying from sites (people) who could care less about their customers...

Cannot see it! I'd rather pay more from someone else!

from previous post; I would NEVER buy from Leisure Pro... there has to be something to all of the bad things people say about them...

Can you back up what your saying??

What bad things?? I've heard good things, and I have had good experiences with them!
who says they could care less??????? I've gotten phone calls from them.

Did you know they are a shop that you can walk into?? They are not just an on-line store!! I buy things from them that my Favorite shop doesn't carry.
I buy mostly from my Favorite shop.
I also buy some things on-line.
 
Yeah I actually drove down 3.5 hours to get to NYC and shop at LeisurePro.. (and get krispy kreme donuts) The guy there helped me pickout everything that I needed, and then theres even some "senior" guy who checked and made sure all my equipment fit right, the newbie that i am.. i bought my wetsuit, bc, reg, and other major equipment there.. they treated me the same if not better than my LDS so I think its pretty cool, i even got a free bag ! Plus the store is nice and has a showroom and everything and doesn't look like some shady warehouse joint or anything like that.. its right between 5 and 6 ave.. but anyway, back to the point.. i am happy with their service and bought stuff online from them too. But ThinDiver's news about that sketchy thing that went on is something to think about.. though its not written anywhere..
 
Or would that be "Who is slapping whom?

ThinDiver once bubbled...
Slapping your LDS in the face by buying online is one thing but buying from sites (people) who could care less about their customers...

Cannot see it! I'd rather pay more from someone else!

If you shop at your LDS you are. You have that right, and I envy the fact you can afford to. For me the OLS vs LDS is not about being a cheapskate. Take a Scubapro MK25/G250HP as an example. My LDS wants $550.00 + $41.25 tax, Leisurepro wants 324.95 + about $12.00 shipping. $254.30 is too great a difference, I feel the LDS is slapping me in the face by charging so much more.

As to the counterfeit ScubaPro product:

From the August, 1998, issue of Undercurrent

"From 1995 until 1997, Cal Pacific was JWA's manufacturer for the SeaHawk BC, using tools belonging to JWA. In September, 1997, JWA informed Ms. Walters that it was moving its production to another facility and expected final delivery in December, 1997. Cal Pacific had possession of the BC tooling until April, 1998.

From consumers, JWA learned of counterfeits on the market and purchased one. JWA's Product Manager, David McLean, compared the tooling with the tools returned by Cal Pacific and found identical impressions (a fingerprint, he said) on the counterfeit BC, tying the counterfeit BC to the tooling formerly possessed by Cal Pacific. The labels on the counterfeit were printed on material designed by Cal Pacific and printed uniquely for them. And Cal Pacific's own proprietary "Forte" valve fittings - which are not on the genuine model - were built into the counterfeit BC."

You can read the full article here:

http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/articles/Grey9808.shtml

I think most divers want to support their local shops, but there must be more equitable pricing.
Bill
 
I was about to state what the last two messages mentioned. Most OLS are LDS to the lcoal clientele. If I were in NYC, I'm sure I would treat LP as a brick & mortar, "try and buy", store. When I was down in S. FL, I stopped by Divers Direct to checkout their storefront and services.

Given the way LP acquires it's inventory, what's stopping the LDS from doing the same thing? Quantity, is one obvious thing, but I would imagine a few LDS owners could ban together to overcome that issue. So it really boils down to what perks the manufacturers are offering the LDS? Off the top of my head I can think of a few, but I'd like to hear a version from a LDS owner.

Someone mentioned that the manufacturers don't enforce price-fixing. I tend to think the opposite based on the product research in the past. But if price-fixing is not an issue, then the LDS can choose to sell the products at a lower markup and bank on quantity. Argument was made that most the business goes to new divers, well there is the Internet. If you run a good business, the news will get around.

For instance, if you know people speak the world of Apeks regs, buy in quantity from Aqualung/Seaquest, lower the markup and sell on the Internet. If people had a comparable option, they wouldn't be going to DiveInn or SimplyScuba. To compensate for the overstock, lower the stock of basic necessitites that people will buy online once they figure it out. In fact, do them a favor and turn them onto the Internet for a wider selection. In the same breath, tell them that you'll have the best price and support for "vital" equipment.

In retrospect, I noticed that all the "new" diver equipment was extremely over priced. Fins for $50 - $100, snorkel for $50, mask for $60, wieght belts, and of course you need a dive bag. Do you tell the customer in advance of all the "benefits" that they will recieve from buying through your store?

I value good customer service. If I buy online I do all the research myself without the resources of the LDS. If resources valuable or not were spent on me, I generally give the LDS business. Spending $400 as opposed to $600 for regs is a no-brainer.

Ken
 
I keep seeing threads about the merits of buying online vs buying from a LDS. One thread in particular has gotten a bit nasty. It just makes me wonder - LDS owners and employees, do you resent customers who do not purchase all of their gear from you?

I keep hearing the argument that LDS's only make money on gear. Training and travel are merely ways of bringing people in to the shop in the hopes that they will buy gear. Does that mean I have to feel guilty if I take a class with an LDS and use the gear that I already own? (OK, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration.)

An LDS must make SOME money on training. If there are 4 people already registered for a class and I sign on as a fifth, there must be some profit in training me. After all, the instructor is already engaged and, presumably, paid for. At that point, my course fee is gravy, isn't it?

I know that some LDS's make a bit of money on travel. Some of them just make enough to pay for the cost of sending a divemaster/instructor/group leader with a group. So I conceed that a trip is not a source of income. But it is a way that an LDS owner or staff member can subsidize his or her own dive travel.

I have taken classes, and trips with more than one LDS. I have bought gear from more than one LDS. I've also bought a few things online and popped into Divers Direct for a thing or two when I have been in Florida. Should I assume that when the LDS owner who carries zeagle regs sees me with my Aqualung reg on his boat he is thinking, "%$#@!!! She should have bought her reg from me!!!"

I want to support local dive shops. I get sad each time I hear of another one closing. (Three that I know of in NYC have closed in the last 6 months.) But I don't want to feel that I can't take a class or go on a LDS sponsored trip unless I drop several hundred dollars each time I go into the store. I'm dropping enough money as it is. This is not an inexpensive hobby.

Can any LDS folks convince me that I should stop playing the field and become a one LDS woman?
 
...and although I can't address most of your questions, maybe I can shed some light on the classes and the way they were structured in our shop a couple of years ago.

In our shop, an OW class is $150, and covers two weekends each. That does not include the teaching materials, which is about $60, but does include the rental gear and your C-card processing fee. You need to purchase your personal gear...mask, fins, snorkle, weight belt and weights (usually #10). Of course the shop prefers that you buy from them as this basic gear would run in the market of $250, but it wasn't required and the student was not treated any differently if they didn't buy from us. Some students would come to class with gear borrowed from friends or may have even bought them elsewhere.

Normal class size was 8-10 students, with class minimum being 4 students. Let's use 10 students for this example. Of that $150 per student, ($1500) the Instructor was paid $50 per student (-500) (this may have been raised by now). The store had to rent class time at a local public pool which cost $40 per hour. For the weekend classes, this was 6 hrs per day for Saturday and Sunday, 12 hours total (-$480). No, the students aren't IN the water for 6 hrs. per day but the class was AT the pool. For the next weekends checkout dives at a local quarry, each students entry fee was $30 (-$300) for the weekend. Each students tank had to be filled at least once each day, so 20 fills at $4 (-$80). The dive site does not charge Instrtctors or Divemasters entry fees or for air fills. Divemasters do not get paid for the class. C-Card PIC envelopes $13 (-$130). So out of that $1500 taken in for class fees, subtract $1490 for class expenses. Out of the $10 profit, the shop maintains all rental gear (BC's, regs, tanks) and replaces it at least once a year or more often if needed. This includes tanks. Oh, and the students recieved a T-shirt upon completion of their certification. Cost per T $7 wholesale (-$70). Now we're into the red by $60. This is with a good class. If a student needs more pool time, more of the Instructors time, the shop pays for the pool and the Instructor donates his time....the student is not charged more.

And we haven't even mentioned lease/mortgage payments, utility bills, employee salaries and assocciated taxes, insurance, etc. that is required to provide a place for the academic classroom time and space. The vast majority of a shops rental tanks are for their own use so a big part of the hours used on a compressor is class related. I have no real idea of the cost of compressor maintainence but I know it is vital and something that is done religiously. Since it will be mentioned that these expenses will be covered by merchandise sales, let's just not count them.

That still leaves us losing $60 on a class of 10 students. To be VERY generous, let's say the shop holds these classes every 2 weeks. 26 classes of 10 students, each at a loss of $60 will give the dive shop a loss of $1560 every year on just the classes alone.

Gravy? I don't think so.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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