The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[wch]

That's the rub Mike.
I don't question what you are saying about your pricing, and your inability to sell online. The problem is (well no problem for me beyond the fact I would rather shop local) is if you buy a SP regulator from DiveInn you get the SP international warranty card. The box it came in has the serial number, the regulator has the serial number on it, the warranty card has the serial number on it, and the warranty card has the dealer stamp on it. SP must know one of their "authorized" dealers is selling online, the volume going through that one shop has to be enormous.
The question is the pricing that they are receiving to sell that low, and the lack of restriction on the MSRP. (My LDS says they are forced to sell at MSRP, and can only go up to a 10% discount.) And finally why they can sell online and US dive shops can't.
There is some S%$#y business going on, but it is the US consumer (and if we are to believe our LDS about the pricing, both wholesale and retail, them too) who it is landing on.
Bill

 

[Scuba]

DiveInn is a Spanish shop Simply Scuba is a British shop. Simply Scuba claims on their website to be an EU ( European Union ) authorised dealer - not a U.S. authorised dealer. I suspect DiveInn is the same.

The laws in this field along with dealer contracts are probably different in Europe than in the US, maybe someone with knowledge of this can comment. The same may very well be true for the pricing structure, as we all know how much the price changes for the same identical item from country to country.

We are used to thinking that everything here is the best and we have the best free enterprise system. While overall probably true, this is not the case in every specific instance. As I mentioned in an earlier post the manufacturers here have what most would consider to be anti competitive legal rights. (right to refuse to sell their products, practically for any reason, to any established retailer)

The product warranty is honored in the EU just like a product purchased here in the US will be honored through out the country.
The international warranty card apparently does not have to be honored by dealers outside their contractual area. Hence you may return the product to these dealers as in effect they are the ones providing the manufacturers warranty.

Question for Mike Ferrara, since you are a dealer. Are you legally or contractually obligated to honor an international warranty for a line of products you are an authorized dealer for.

Peter

 

[retnug]

Warranty issues aside. Since Simply Scuba and DiveInn appear to be authorized dealers. The Manufacturer or suppliers are obviously selling the units at a markedly higher markup to US LDS's than European LDS's. I'm not sure what can be done for the US LDS's but I can't afford to spend almost twice the amount for the same unit.

I'm sure you guys wouldn't by the same car for $50000 dollars when you can get it for $25000.


Gunter

 

[Narced]

Don't act like LeisurePro is providing all of these goods "hot" or counterfeit. Consider this scenario. You are the manufacturer. You sell to many LDSs at such and such price and warn them that deep price cuts can result in their dealership being pulled. You, the manufacturer, are then approached by an operation like LeisurePro who says we don't need to be an authorized dealer to sell this stuff, just give us such and such price and leave us alone and we will buy the following HUGE quantity from you.

This deal is nothing new. It is also nothing unique to scuba. It is simply a different deal. For you to maintain your authorized dealer status, you must follow a certain guideline. Come up with enough capital and offer to buy a large quantity at discount and drop the authorized dealer sign from your shop and you could sell at LeisurePro prices as well.

This really is that simple folks. It is authorized low volume dealers versus high volume dealers with no authorized signs. The manufacturer claims they are helping the small LDS by offering to "authorize" them and not the big guys. Of course, with authorization comes the "rules."

The problem for the LDSs is that when a shop like LeisurePro gives customers good service and stands behind the product they sell, the LDS can no longer sell at a terrible price just because they can claim to be "authorized."

Long and short is the consumer base is much more educated now and will look at the same reg with a 300 dollar price tag at a large unauthorized dealer who gives good service and realize that is essentially the same deal they get for 500 at the LDS.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Warentee is an interesting subject. The warentee issues we have dealt with consist of the manufacturer sending us parts at no cost. I do not get paid for the labor, not ever! So what does it mean to honor a warentee. I would certainly be willing to ship it to the manufacturer and let them honor the warentee. I have never seen an international warentee card and in fact just heard of it now. If someone brings in a Cressi reg from diveinn with a international warentee card it means nothing to me. I will require payment for my labor. If I sold the reg I will take care of my customer one way or the other.

The same is true for recalls. We are a Sherwood dealer but since they started to allow online sales we haven't sold a single sherwood reg. From what the rep told us you need to have huge volumes in stock in order for them to permit online sales. I don't know the details or if it's even true because I have never caught this guy telling the truth. But..we can't stock huge volumes. We just don't deal in those kinds of dollars. When the Maximus was recalled we were instructed to fix them for free. Nobody offered to pay us. Why would I do such a thing. they even wanted us to search our records to find people who baught these regs and contact them incase they didn't send in their warentee card. there was no mention of getting paid for my efforts. Luckily we never sold any of these regs. But...If somebody brings one into my shop I won't touch it unless I get paid by somebody. I didn't sell the reg and I won't work on it for free.

Thats all I know about warentee.

We don't get told much beyond what they want us to do. It's as if we work for them.

We now carry very few lines and the number is going down. We will not con divers into buying junk they don't need just to meet our minimums. Some of this stuff, especially bc's, I don't even want to teach someone wearing it let alone sell it to them. We only do business with the manufacturers who convince me that they have some sense of responsibility to the sport of diving and there first line customer (ME) and they are damn few.

The one thing that their big business ripoff scheems can't get them is diving prowis. That is what I have to sell. I will not use it to make some crooked MBA rich.

If divers want access to this hard earned knowlege and increasingly rare abilities they will not find at a discount price on the net. We will serve the few willing to invest. They are a dream to work with.

 

[DNAXdiver]

What I see as the big sin here is not the whole LDS vs OLS thing, but the fact that this guy, like so many other LDSs, can't separate the instruction side of the biz from the gear sale side, and uses the class to push gear, recommending what he carries, rather than what is truely the best from a DIR point of view.

The situation is not unique. While DIRs most vocal advocate on the net, George Irving, favors APks Apeks, JJ's shop, EE, which doubles as GUE HQ, doesn't carry the line but is an SP dealer, so anyone who turns up at High Springs to take GUE instruction and needs regs still gets sold SPs.

mark3397 once bubbled...
Hey, if you are going to do it right you might as well REALLY do it right.

I'm going to be taking my DIRF class this weekend and I don't have all of the stuff needed for the class. So, I walk into the shop that is hosting the classroom section of the class to pick up some stuff I know I'm going to need. I immediately meet the owner as that he introduces himself after I ask about the DIRF class this upcoming weekend. I asked him if he had gear to rent for this weekend that I could use as that my regulators won't be here yet.

 

[DuckDive]

Narced once bubbled...
This really is that simple folks. It is authorized low volume dealers versus high volume dealers with no authorized signs. The manufacturer claims they are helping the small LDS by offering to "authorize" them and not the big guys. Of course, with authorization comes the "rules."

Then the 'problem' is the manufacturer-set price difference between the two.

I think there is a place for the discount store as well as the higher-markup-more-value dive shop. But at twice the price, the value-adding LDS isn't even in the game.

Mark.

 

[java]

<rant>
Look we do not live in a third world country!!
Do you think Leisure Pro would be in business if their stuff was stolen or counterfeit? I'm sure if that were the case they would be shut down by the NY Attorney Gen in no time. They are not running their operation out of some fly by night attic. I was in their store. It is in middle of Manhattan and has been there for years.
Go and see for yourself.

While I am sympathetic to the LDS please don't make up stories about an online store selling hot or counterfeit gear!!!
</rant>

 

[java]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
You folks still don't get it. If I sell on the net I get my dealorship pulled then I have nothing to sell at all unless of course I get it on the street. Anybody selling SP regs online is either not a dealer or is in violation of their dealer agreement. As for selling that reg for $250, thats about what it would cost me. It wouldn't be worth the time it takes to ring up the sale. Anybody selling a $600 (msrp) reg for $250 is not buying it from ScubaPro. Folks those prices are too good to be true and they are. As far as I can see its like buying a watch from inside a guys jacket on the street corner. Even vulume buying would not allow one to sell for that price. Why? because SP does not sell them that cheap. There is dirty sh## going on and we can't compete while playing buy the rules as they have been set forth.

Mike,
While I wish I had all the answers to the LDS problem, I don't. One thing I can suggest is that the LDS group together and gang up on the manufacturers. Online is here to stay but as a group you can pressure the manufacturers to give you the same deal. Can you imagine what reaction you would get if 100 LDSs called Scuba Pro or any others on the same day telling them that you would no longer carry their line or service them if you can't get the same deal as online. Don't approach all the companies at the same time. Try doing it to one big one and I imagine that they would fold pretty quickly. The LDS is a very fragmented business but if you can somehow group them together for this one reason I think you can succeeed.
Just pleading with the companies will not help (isn't that obvious?)

 

[mr_jmac]

I was certified last summer (privately). Walked into my hometown diveshop (Sudbury , ON) for the first time earlier this spring (since I was certified out of town). I was feeling great about diving ... anxious to buy my OWN gear ... wanting to explore new dive sites etc.

I had never even thought about online shopping (although I had been using the net to research products ... Scubaboard too.

At this point I was clueless about equipment ... just learning.

I walked out of that dive shop within 1 minute and will never walk in again.

I began to ask questions regarding regulators and the first thing she said to me was, "I need to know now if you are going to buy anything. If not, you can learn about all this somewhere else!"

She was not in the least bit interested when I was certified, by who, where I had dove. I tried to start a discussion regarding local dive sites and she seemed totally disinterested.

NO enthusiasm about the sport of diving at all ... the only thing she was interested in was making a buck. She was rude and insulted me in the process.