The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Ferrara]

As a lds owner I tend to dwell on the negative when on a subject like this. However we do have some customers who are an absolute pleasure to know and dive with. Some even insist on paying full retail price. These are obviously divers with significant disposable incomes who depend on the services we provide other than just retail.

Also let me state that I realize not every lds provides good service. The fact that I wasn’t happy with any of the shops I had access to is one of the major reasons I opened my own. Also, some divers can do without the services of an lds. Others need the service and don’t realize it. The useless shops certainly help drive people to the net. Out of the gait, you don’t owe your lds anything.

What I have tried to do on this thread and others is to explain some of what really goes on in the dive industry. It honestly scares me to see whose hands the care of the dive industry is falling into. The rampant misconceptions can also become very discouraging.

Let me draw a picture for you. We are in our third year in business. We carry Zeagle, Halcyon, Cressi, Henderson, Whites, Sherwood, Genesis and some other misc. lines. We have almost completely phased out Sherwood and Genesis. Why? Because nobody in his or her right mind would by it from me given what it sells for on the net. Crammer and Decker (the distributor) also have threatened to pull our dealership because we don’t meet the minimum sales requirements. This also means that I have no interest in servicing this equipment (and in fact wont be able to service any new models) unless I sold it (standing behind something I sold). I have no intention of doing anything to promote this company, not even by accident.

For 20+ years before us the lds that was here sold Aqualung almost exclusively. Wouldn’t it make sense for me to carry Aqualung? Yes, except we are too small, we can’t commit to the annual sales requirements or even the minimum initial order. I might, however, meet the requirements the second or the third year selling the line. I have been speaking to Aqualung on and off for over two years and they won’t budge. The last time I spoke to them was yesterday. I can’t even service Aqualung equipment. As a service, to local Aqualung product owners, I ship it to another shop. I can only tack on enough to cover my costs. This is the largest demand for service in our area and I can’t touch it. Same story with Scubapro only their requirements for a dealer are far more absurd than Aqualung. If I had the cash required to start with Scubapro, I wouldn’t need to.

The following companies, and others, forbid the online or mail order sales of their merchandise:
Scubapro, Aqualung, Zeagle, Cressi

Halcyon is legitimately sold online. How can I carry it? Because I can give you the same price as Extreme Exposure. Halcyon, IMO, is a first rate company who takes their responsibility to diving seriously.

It isn’t illegal to sell these products online. However, in order to be an authorized dealer you must sign a contract agreeing to abide by the manufacturers policies. A breech of this contract is a legal matter.

If you purchase a Zeagle product online you do’nt know what you are getting. Do I want to service it? No. I do not in any way want to be part of the chain that brought that piece of equipment to you. We’re talking about life support equipment. Zeagle wants a qualified tech to assemble, test and explain the equipment before you use it. I need information and other support from Zeagle. If the equipment is purchased online this vital chain of information and checks has been broken. IMO this is a different situation than just buying used. The difference is the potential for tractability.

In a conversation with Scubapro, my wife was told of a complaint they received. A diver purchased a “new” Scubapro reg from a very popular online merchant, one who is mentioned on this board all the time. The reg was full of sand and damaged. Where did that reg come from? Between the time it left Scubapro and the time the online people got it we don’t know where it was or what was done to it. It seems clear that it was not inspected and tested by a competent tech. I left names out because this is second hand info and I posses no proof

For the companies who advertise that instructors assemble your equipment before shipment, I would suggest they use technicians. There is nothing about being an instructor that qualifies one to test regulators.

If nothing else, I hope I have helped some of you to be more informed consumers.

 

[Ferrara]

Swamp Rat,
In answer to your question about service rates, We don't normally charge by the hour. For most jobs there is a flat rate. Most service work amounts to annual rebuilds for regs and visual inspections for tanks. We charge $10.00 for a tank inspection. This can take anywhere from 15 min. to an hour or more for a tank that is kind of beat up. In the case of a hydro we visual the tank before and after, but only charge for one visual.

Reg service is $35 plus parts. The service includes rebuild of 1st stage and both second stages and inspection of hoses and gauges. I am a bit faster but my wife spends at least 2 hours on a reg (labor not including cleaning time) . Equipment service is actually a very small portion of our business. Regs and bcs don't ussually break. If there is a real defect in a piece of equipment like stitching in a bc or some other workmanship issue. It normally goes back to the manufacturer. There is time and hasle associated with these things but no money changes hands.

 

[buff]

I have purchased a great deal of merchandise online and have presented the arguments for doing so in other posts-I won't do it here. Suffice it to say that I have always been happy with my purchases-both in quality and price.

I have purchased dive gear from Spain and the U.K. I found the prices to be much much cheaper in the U.K. than the LDS-and that includes shipping. As I recall most if not all of the dive shops I have looked at online in the U.K. have stated that they are authorized dealers and they still sell over the internet and they sell at very reasonable prices.

I realize that the big manufacturers do not authorize selling of dive equipment over the internet-at least in the U.S. Dive shops seem to get away with it in the U.K. Many of the U.K. members on this board are agast when they learn how much us Yanks pay for our dive goods at the LDS.

I found it interesting what Ferrara said(next paragraph) - and I am sure it's true in the U.S. but it might not be legal in the U.K. and that is why their dive stuff costs less.

"It isn’t illegal to sell these products online. However, in order to be an authorized dealer you must sign a contract agreeing to abide by the manufacturers policies. A breech of this contract is a legal matter"

 

[Tobinskii]

I have noticed the same thing about the inconsistencies of European and American on-line stores and warranty issues. I’ve always wondered if it is not really the manufacturers who have these on-line policies, but their distributors instead. I could easily see how the major American distributors (such as Aqua-Lung) would be scared to death of on-line sales. A manufacturer could easily sell direct to on-line stores (in essence, creating another sales channel) and therefore bypass the distributors for those sales. While this would obviously be advantageous to the manufactures to do this (remove the middle-man), it could potentially kill the distributors.

I used to work for a company who was in a similar situation (although completely different type of product, not even remotely related to scuba). They are a manufacturer of storage cases and have distributors that have nationwide presences (Target, WallMart, Circuit City, ect…). Their distributors exercised such power over the company that, although the company spent a large sum of money developing its own on-line store, they can’t promote it or sell any products on it for less than MSRP (even though almost all of their distributors sell the same products below MSRP, both in the stores and on their own websites). Basically, the manufacturer is stuck because if they upset one of these distributors, they could lose millions of dollars of sales per year. Additionally, the distributors know the power they hold over the manufacturer and leverage to their advantage.

Can’t the Scuba industry be viewed from a similar angle? Ferrara, I would be most interested in your view on this, since you are actually part of the industry.

s@mpson

 

[Ferrara]

s@mpson,
You certainly have an interesting question, I don't know if I have an answer though. The line betwee manufacturers and distributers is not always clear. For instance Zeagle manufacturers their own BC but not their own computer. Are they a manufacturer or a distributer. In fact I don't know who manufactures the computer or what the contract is between the two. I really think it is more than just a control issue. Things seem to be in such a state of flux that it is hard to apply reason. Most dive shop owners have probably heard of supply and demand. In theory, eventually, the market will determin the cost. The question is, what is in demand. At one time if you wanted dive gear you went to the LDS. A dive shop could then give away classes, service, air or whatever to create a need for the equipment. We still have these loss leaders creating the need and getting people in the door but know we are creating a need for a product that we are not going to sell. The manufacturers/distributers want volume but some dont want to do without the representation of the lds. Also they don't want to lower our costs (without the volume) so that we can compete. Crammer and Decker doesn't acknowlege that an issue exists. They want both the volume of the net and the representation of the lds. I think some manufacturers/distributers are looking further ahead than others. If We don't teach people to dive, sales will drop through the floor. The bulk of the major equipment sales are to people buying their first kit. The same goes for the resorts. The majority of divers spend the most in the first couple of years. The lds is still getting by. Why? Because some of our students will do as we suggest. Others think they are smarter. When I sell a reg it isn't to a stranger I'll never see again. When I sell a reg, I will have to live with the results of that sale. When the net sells a reg I still, to some extent, have to live with the results of the sale. A very few divers are independant and honestly do not need the lds. Others are just vacation divers, they will buy on the net, if at all and dive the Caribbean. There are no doubt many of those that I don't even meet. These two groups are not the issue for the lds. The divers that want our cheap classes, air, counsultation and service but spend all the real money online and in the Caribbean are what the fight is over. In order to sell to these divers the lds is needed. I think different manufacturers take a different aproach and level of responsibility toward the same situation. In other words, some manufacturers value the lds more than others.

 

[buff]

Ferrara-
Your post still doesn't answer the question posed by S@mpson: Why is there a discrempency between the way Europe does business and the way the U.S. dive shops do business.


I feel the internet purchases have changed the market forever. It used to be that you had to go to the LDS since it was the ONLY location that had dive gear. Now you can get dive gear at Costco and the internet-lots of different locations. The idea of the "loss leader" for the dive shop might have seen it's time come and go. If a dive shop deems it necessary to have their students buy their gear and the student can get it else where at a percieved better value then it's not the fault of the student but the system of manufacturers, distributors and dive shop owners.

I hear too many dive shop owners complain about potential customers NOT buying from them-as if the new student has the obligation to do so. I was in sales and never blamed the customer for my inability to convince them that my product was best choice for them. Maybe more dive shop owners should look at the system of dive shop sales and it's manufactureres and distributors for the problem and not the custmer.

I like my LDS owner-I have known him since he certified me in '78. But it's not duty to keep him in business. And I don't think he feels that it's my job either.

 

[boomx5]

I decided yesterday after being intrigued about this subject, to call one of the local dive shops in my area. I asked them for a price on a Apex ATX 200 and the price they quoted me was $605.00. Then I went to divers warehouse website and found the same regulator for $290.00! At that price I can buy two for the price of one. I would really like to buy this kind of stuff from my LDS, but how do I pass up such a great deal like this?
Scott

 

[AliKat]

I buy a lot of accessories on line. I do a lot of shopping at Divers Direct and have not been disappointed. A lot of companies won't sell their products on line, so you don't have much of a choice.

I'm fortunate to be in an area where the dive shop prices are probably = to most on line, but there also isn' t always a lot of choice.

 

[Ferrara]

Buff,
I tried to explain why, I think, some manufacturers/distributore have different internet policies. As for the difference between Europe and the us, I am currently trying to get an answer from my suppliers. I had someone call me the other day and ask if I could match a price that was below what the item costs me. The price came from an online company in Europe.

I blame the manufacturers/distributors and the dive shops themselves for the current situation not the consumer. The only complaint I have about divers is that many do not hesitate to take up many hours of my time trying to learn everything I know about equipment. Then when it comes time to buy, they are unwilling to pay for that time. I would prefer to charge by the hour. Do you still think the online prices would look good?

As an instructor, I would prefer all the retail go somewhere else. Good instruction and good retail often conflict. The loss leader practices are way out of date. Some shops just won't change and they slow down the rest of us.

 

[CAMPER]

Ferrara,

When buying high price equipment I do many hours of research with dealers, internet and other buyers of the same equipment. I have not created any obligation to buy from those I have asked advice from. I have found that there is a great amount of very conflicting information about any one piece of equipment, and that no one source of information is to be trusted above all others.

My major beef with dealers in my area is the lack of rental units or even in store stock for anything but the cheaper line of products. They tell me to trust them without trying the stuff out or even seeing it in the store. I might as well buy it on line.

Ed B