The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[MNScuba]

Well, I have to confess...
I went back on my own advice and did a bad thing tonight...

I bought my Suunto Mosquito at one of my LDS's for $399.99 and was pretty proud of myself. Well, today I went online and saw it at DiveInn for under $260.00 with shipping included. $140.00 difference... I tried to ignore it, but it kept bothering me all day long how much gear I could get for $140. I could go to my LDS and buy a scuba tank for $140!

Well... I went to the LDS and returned my Mosquito, came home and ordered one online at DiveInn.com, now I feel bad. I'm sure it will pass, and my continued support for other items at my LDS will somehow even out.

So there... I fell victim to what I have been bashing since I signed on here. If there's a good side, I did buy the following at my LDS:

BCD
Regulator
Mask, Fins, Snorkel
Wetsuit

 

[DiverInAk]

Well I wouldn't feel too bad. However I agree with FishKiller and prefer to give the LDS at shot at my money first. In my case the LDS didn't want to budge much and I didn't want the "package" as it didn't fit my needs.

However, when the LDS's hands are tied by the manufacturer or distributor, I guess that's a problem the LDS can't get around. That being said, I will not pay %40 - %50 more for an item than I can get on line.

The Internet also offers more choices for gear, not just price. I have two shops I can look at for gear, other than that I have to rely on gleaning information via printed or on-line media or my own dive trips.

I think the manufacturers will eventually come around, as their business model is changing and they too will have to change, or get out of the way.

 

[Ferrara]

Originally posted by AllenG
I read with interest the hypothesis that Internet-based vendors threaten the viability of LDS operations. At the risk of being classified as a fossil, I recall many years ago hearing the same arguments made against mail order and telephone order. Yes, some LDSs did go the way of the dodo, but I would suggest that many of them fell victim to excess local competition (three or four stores in a town), lack of business management skills ("diving is a fun hobby, so it will be a fun business") and, most importantly, failure to offer value. Just having the gear available to see and touch does not constitute value; an informed sales staff, willing and able to help you figure out what gear will work best for you, offers value! Just having old salts available to tell you about their UW adventures does not constitute value; staff skilled in listening, so that they can learn about the customer's diving interests and offer advice on how to maximize those interests, represent value! This is basic business. An LDS that offers "value" as I have described it above has nothing to fear from Internet operations, which are typically hard pressed value other than pricing.

We do indeed offer the value you refer to. divers spend many hours receiving counceltation from us. Once they know what they want, they buy online. The service and the value I provided came in handy and at a great price It was free!

 

[MikeS]

As a new diver going through OW Cert I purchased all of my gear through an LDS. Being a student and buying things “as a package,” I got a 20% discount off list. The discount was the same at all three LDSs I checked out. I selected an LDS based on convenience and product lines they offered and serviced. The choice came down to Apex and ScubaPro and I went with Apex. I checked out prices on-line and suspect I could have saved an additional 30 % of the $2,000 I spent.

So what did I get for $600?
· I got to see it before I paid for it.
· If something doesn’t work I know where to take it back.
· I know where I can get it serviced.
· They spent an enormous amount of time answering my three thousand ignorant questions.
· They continue to answer my questions.

In the future will I continue to buy from the LDS? Depends on what it is. I need a knife; I’ll probably buy it on line. If I get a new first stage for a pony bottle, I’ll probably buy if from the LDS to get their advice and assistance.

The ability to purchase scuba gear on-line will certainly change the LDS and customer relationship in the future. Is this a good thing, only time will tell? Will it put LDSs out of business, almost certainly not (the ability to buy cars on-line has not put car dealers out of business)?

What will likely change for the better is that prices will certainly come down? What will change for the worse? LDSs will probably have to charge more for services including air and maintenance.

Additionally, the relationship between manufactures and LDS will likely change. Manufactures that try to limit on-line sales will only be hurting themselves in the long run. One of the few places that I could get valid price comparisons was from on-line dealers. Essentially, the manufactures are getting free advertising. I also think that manufactures will have to pay LDSs more for warranty work another activity that is subsidized through sales.

 

[Ferrara]

Originally posted by MikeS
As a new diver going through OW Cert I purchased all of my gear through an LDS. Being a student and buying things “as a package,” I got a 20% discount off list. The discount was the same at all three LDSs I checked out. I selected an LDS based on convenience and product lines they offered and serviced. The choice came down to Apex and ScubaPro and I went with Apex. I checked out prices on-line and suspect I could have saved an additional 30 % of the $2,000 I spent.

So what did I get for $600?
· I got to see it before I paid for it.
· If something doesn’t work I know where to take it back.
· I know where I can get it serviced.
· They spent an enormous amount of time answering my three thousand ignorant questions.
· They continue to answer my questions.

In the future will I continue to buy from the LDS? Depends on what it is. I need a knife; I’ll probably buy it on line. If I get a new first stage for a pony bottle, I’ll probably buy if from the LDS to get their advice and assistance.

The ability to purchase scuba gear on-line will certainly change the LDS and customer relationship in the future. Is this a good thing, only time will tell? Will it put LDSs out of business, almost certainly not (the ability to buy cars on-line has not put car dealers out of business)?

What will likely change for the better is that prices will certainly come down? What will change for the worse? LDSs will probably have to charge more for services including air and maintenance.

Additionally, the relationship between manufactures and LDS will likely change. Manufactures that try to limit on-line sales will only be hurting themselves in the long run. One of the few places that I could get valid price comparisons was from on-line dealers. Essentially, the manufactures are getting free advertising. I also think that manufactures will have to pay LDSs more for warranty work another activity that is subsidized through sales.

In regard to the last statment above, manufacturers do not pay the LDS anything for warenty work. They provide the parts we provide the labor FREE. If you bought it somewhere else or we matched online prices ( no margin) we just work all day FREE.

 

[Swamp Rat]

There is no wonder why the scuba retail industry is so screwed up. You mean to tell me that warrenty work is not paid for by the MFG. I can see reduce hour rates but Free is a crock. Boy are things going to change and change they will. Prices of equipment will go down, Prices of service and warrenty service will go up and air prices will go up. That is what's going to happen if you dont sell on line. But the ones there now are going to be hard to match. So I would not invest in the servers just yet.

 

[MNScuba]

It sounds like the only people making any real money in the market are the manufacturers and the travel industry. Internet sites might be making good money as well even with the reduced markup. I bought my Mosquito from DiveInn.com, and they said that if any warranty work needed to be done that they would send me postage paid packing and try to have it back to me in a matter of days. Therefore, the products I buy onliine will not get worked on by my LDS. BUT... I am still debating whether or not I would buy items like regulators online.

Here's one point however.... If I buy my gear in California on a trip and live in Minnesota, am I expected to take it back to California for warranty work? I would hope not. It's kind of the same thing with online sales isn't it? The only difference being the fact that a physical shop benefitted rather than an online company.

This is a tough subject, and one that I've changed my mind about a couple times since it started. I do believe there is a place for both in the market, it will just take some time to figure out what to buy online and what to buy at your LDS. The LDS will not go away, too many people are affraid of buying online or don't have access. Also, it might come to paying more for services and air... if that's the case, so be it. Competition is the American way, if I can save a buck I'll buy at my LDS, if i can save $100's, I will buy online.

 

[Aquamore]

This was advertised in the e-world as a modern luxury mobile home!

See pic
Aquamore

 

[MNScuba]

Well, shucks... what more could ya want!?
Ya got yer dawg house
Ya got yer mobility
Ya got yer porch
Ya got yer roof

And above all, a handicapped parking space at all times.

 

[Ferrara]

Originally posted by Swamp Rat
There is no wonder why the scuba retail industry is so screwed up. You mean to tell me that warrenty work is not paid for by the MFG. I can see reduce hour rates but Free is a crock. Boy are things going to change and change they will. Prices of equipment will go down, Prices of service and warrenty service will go up and air prices will go up. That is what's going to happen if you dont sell on line. But the ones there now are going to be hard to match. So I would not invest in the servers just yet.

That is exactly what I mean to tell you. There has never been any situation warenty or otherwise that has resulted in any manufacturer paying us anything. The cashflow is one way.

Here is a good example. When the Genesis GS2000 first came out on a dive (luckily with me) a customer had her reg start to seep air. A quick examination revealed that the first stage high presure seat was leaking. The sales rep told me they had a bad batch of seats and they had changed the material. When I went to replace the seat, which requires complete disassembly, I found water in the first stage. On a second call to the rep he informed me that there had been a design change. He sent me the new parts kit. In fact several. All the GS2000 and atlas regs I sold had to have the refit. I spent a good number of hours rebuilding regs at no charge and providing embarassing explanations to disapointed customers. I sold all those regs at slightly under retail. I still didn't make anything. Today those same regs (Genesis) are all over the net at prices I can't touch. BTW we went through the deal with the HP seats on the Sherwoods also. They use the same seat.

BTW one of the services we provide is that if a piece of equipment (say a reg) that you purchased from me is out of commision and you have a dive planed then you will have the use of one of my regs (no charge).